Tom Wilson & Stfcatfish (question)

[buzzsaw]

Guys, as I've said in the past, I am looking at upgrading my digi camera and was wondering if this is a good deal?

http://cgi.hsolist.com/Canon-EOS-Digital-Rebel-XT-350D-3500-EXTRAS-USA-NEW_W0QQitemZ7548904175QQcategoryZ107909QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks in advance.

[Blaze]

Holy smokes, Buzz...you just made me drool on my keyboard! My old Canon A70 would make a great paperweight if I had one of those babies!

I think you'd be good to go for many years with one of these setups. Wish I had the $$ to do the same.

Good luck.

[Tom Wilson]

Mike,

Call me at home 952-466-DUCK

Tom Wilson

I just don't want to type that much...

[Slyster]

WOW! So what happened? Did you get it?

[buzzsaw]

I didn't get it yet. I'm on the phone with Tom as I type. I'm getting great advice!

Thanks Tom!!

[Steve Foss]

Sorry I wasn't around when this was going on.

How'd it turn out?

[buzzsaw]

I'm not sure what I'm going to do at this point. My first thought was that I could get away with only spending $1,100 - $1,500.. but then was enlightened with the extra costs for good glass or even ok glass. I don't think I can justify spending 3-5 K on a camera. I still want an SLR, but don't want to spend a ton.

[Steve Foss]

Better to get into the digital slr for the $1,100 to $1,500 you mentioned and upgrade to excellent glass later. There's a lot you can do with "consumer" grade lenses as opposed to "professional" grade. If you aren't selling large prints or images to glossy publications, but only are shooting to enjoy yourself and to share images with friends and family, get the consumer glass now and upgrade when you can afford it.

That's what I did. And I'll tell you, some of the prints I've sold the most of came from those lowly consumer grade lenses. And either outdoor photographer or pop photo recently published an article that said today's consumer grade glass is as good as the professional grade of 20 years ago. And there were gorgeous prints made in the mid 80s with that level of glass.

It's easy to get caught up in the urge to have only the top-line product. I suffer to some degree from that myself. But it isn't always necessary, and I'd hate to see you not get into the game at all unless you someday can plop down $3,000 to $5,000.

It sounds like that's contrary to some of the advice you've been given, but that's my advice.

I'd have voted against the original deal you posted not because that wasn't a good price for what you were getting, but because there probably were several items in there you'd never need to use. That's common with hsolist packages of that type.

My further advice would be (and this is to anyone who wants to get into digital SLR photography but has a budget, like almost all of us), buy the best digital SLR body you can afford. Make it a Canon or a Nikon, because you know the Big Two will still be around in a decade. Get an extra battery or two. Be sure to buy a tripod. Make sure you have a big enough memory card (at least 1Gb and one that writes quickly and is very durable), preferably but not necessarily two cards. If you get a Canon Rebel XT for example, buy that package where you get the 18-55 with it, and you can buy 70-300 mm macro lenses from Tamron or Tokina or some other manufacturer for $150 to $300. No, those aren't professional level pieces of glass, and aside from the quality of the glass they offer fewer other features than professional lenses. You can do all that I've recommended for about $1,500, and not on hsolist, but through any number of Web sites. I do all my camera buying online through one specific company, and if you e-mail me, I'll give you that URL.

I think, if you get in on the budget end and start shooting, shooting, shooting, you'll find it hard to resist upgrading. The instant gratification of digital is addicting. So you upgrade one piece of glass at a time as it becomes affordable. And maybe you never upgrade glass at all. Maybe you find your comfort level is just right with the stuff you buy initially, and there's nothing wrong with that either. In some ways, photography equipment is like fishing tackle. The newest, best and most high-grade is the stuff we all dream about, but a 10-pound walleye doesn't care if you're using a G Looomis $259 stick or a $39 Ugly Stick. Most of us would rather fish with the Ugly Stick so we can fish, instead of waiting until we can afford the Loomis before heading out in the boat. Then we can put the Loomis on our Christmas list and see what might happen . . .

[HC Eye Hunter]

I have been extremly happy with my Nikon D70 and the Nikon kit lens 18-70. The nice thing about going with this DSLR package is that I am able to use the older lenses that I had for my Nikon SLR cameras. The kit lens that I recieved with the camera is no slouch either and is in my opinion, as well as many others is close too or at professional grade. I think the package ran about $1,100.00 and is in my opinion a great choice for a DSLR.

[buzzsaw]

catfish, great info... now I'm back in the game!

[Blaze]

Tom/Steve,

You guys have any opinions on hte Nikon D50? From the reviews I've read, it appears to be a "D70 Lite" meaning less manual settings and more suited for novice to mid-level photographers wanting a good DSLR. I'd consider myself a mid-level guy, but am wondering if I'll be kicking myself later for not doing the D70 instead...

Any thoughts? Is the "tweakability" of the D70 worth the extra $150-200?

Thanks.

[Tom Wilson]

Blaze,

Absolutely, positively get the D70 over the D50.

Tom W

[HC Eye Hunter]

Blaze,

The reason I purchased the D70 is for those options. I do most of my shooting in manual but also use apperature priority and shutter priority. I think the advantage of going with a camera that doesn't limit me is a good thing. It gives me a chance to experiment and in turn helps me better understand what kind of limits you go too with my camera.

[hobbydog]

I am another very happy D70 user. The kit lens is an excellent lens. You couple that with a 70-300 cheap lens and you willbe able to take very good pics. I paid $100 for my cheapo 70-300. Also, as already mentioned, wanting nice glass is like a fever you never get over. You will take a pic that is a "good catch" but you know that if you had good glass it would have been so much better with the $1200 lens. When I had my film SLR I never got the glass bug because I never took enough pics to justify it. With digital....

Buy the D70 at a reputable place, either online or locally. Stay away from the HSOList packages. Most of the accessory stuff in these packages is junk.

Things I like about my D70.....with a fast CF card (sandisk ultra)I can shoot continuous 3 fps till the card is full. The battery is incredible. I have never bought a backup because I have never run it out. If you leave the camera on for a week (or several) it does not drain the battery. You can flip the switch on and shoot instantly. Very easy menu and operation.

Get the camera and learn the techniques and the post processing software. Then, if and when you are ready to take it a step further go for the good glass. Time is on your side.....better lens are coming out all the time and with others "catching the fever" there will be a good lineup of "prosumer" lens to meet that demand. I would bet that in 4 or 5 years you will be able to get some real nice glass with VR for $800.

Some pics with my crappy $100 70-300 lens....

[Tom Wilson]

Hobby,

Have you ever noticed that your teal has a band???

[hobbydog]

Quote:

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Hobby,

Have you ever noticed that your teal has a band???

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yup....one of the fun things with pics, especially action shots as you get a few surprises when you look at them on the pc.

[Blaze]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm going for some "hands-on" research this next week and will let you know what I'm thinking.

Some more questions, though: you say the hsolist packages have lots of junk accessories? The ones I've seen (and would consider) have the Nikon 28-80 and Nikon 70-300 glass, tripod, & bag. Not sure I want/need the filters, but what about the memory stuff? Are the high speed USB readers that helpful? How big of a card will I need? I'd think 1GB should be sufficient for now. Also, what do you guys think of wide angle lenses? I'm thinking of panoramic shots, but I can always just crop in Photoshop too, can't I?

[zebco4040]

Great information guys... I am also looking at a Digital SLR for our honeymoon to Ireland and getting the wife involved in photography for weddings. She has taken a photography class and has plans to take more.

Can we start a list of what everyone has for camera's, glass, and accessories?

[hobbydog]

Quote:

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Thanks for the input, guys. I'm going for some "hands-on" research this next week and will let you know what I'm thinking.

Some more questions, though: you say the

hsolist

packages have lots of junk accessories? The ones I've seen (and would consider) have the Nikon 28-80 and Nikon 70-300 glass, tripod, & bag. Not sure I want/need the filters, but what about the memory stuff? Are the high speed USB readers that helpful? How big of a card will I need? I'd think 1GB should be sufficient for now. Also, what do you guys think of wide angle lenses? I'm thinking of panoramic shots, but I can always just crop in Photoshop too, can't I?

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The 28-80 lens is not the quality of lens as the 17-70 offered in the kit. That is the problem with the hsolist stuff as that when you peel away the fine print you are not saving any money. The tripod is probably flimsy. The filters are probably very cheap and with digital you can add filter effects after the fact. The memory card is probably a vey slow cheap one. With the D70 you can shoot continuous with a fast CF card. Good CF cards are really cheap. As far as size...if you always have a laptop or a PC close by a 512 card is sufficient unless you shoot raw. I very seldom shoot raw is it is a lot of extra post processing work and storage for the minor advantages (some will disagree with that) you get from RAW. Do an online search for memory ( I like Sandisk Ultra) and you will find it has become very cheap.

In other words, shop a little online and you will find good deals, get what you want and pay less in the long run. B&H photo is a good place to look online for camera stuff but a lot of the accesories can be found cheaper else where.

Another thing that has not been mentioned much is post processing software. I like Nikon view that comes with the camera quite well but you will also need photoshop elements. Or some other similar program. With minor editing you can do a lot with digital photos to make them better.

[zebco4040]

Quote:

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Can we start a list of what everyone has for camera's, glass, and accessories?

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BUMP / TTT

[Dbl]

Ok I'll bite on that one and be the contrary one on equipment. I have been a Pentax user for about 30 years so when I went digital last spring I stayed in the "family".

I have a Pentax *ist DS with the 18-45 kit lense and a "cheapo" Sigma 70-300 zoom. Polarizing filters, tripod a good battery charger and extra set of batteries. 512 SD card (looking at a high speed 1gig) because I am on a budget. All of my old glass works on My current Pentax, I love the size of the camera, feel in my hands, the layout of the buttons, and ease of menu use.

I shoot about 2500 shots per college baseball season (cheap glass works wonders) and all my landscape and wildlife shots are for my own pleasure. I have shot more pictures the last 8 months than I shot in the last 10 years. Instant feedback, no worries about film cost, pre-processing in the camera (not post in darkroom) ability to rework or change the look of your photos with even free software are a few of the reasons I couldn't be happier with the switch to digital. It revived my passion for photography again.

Dan

[buzzsaw]

Okay guys, I'm back in! If I was playing Texas Hold em' I wouldn't as they say "All in" more like "calling" others. Okay, enough bad analogies.

I was over at Ritz Camera in B'ville today and I looked at both the Cannon and Nikon DSLR's and I've come to the conclusion that Nikon is the way I'm going,

drum roll please........................................................... D50!

Heres a review from Digital review . (sorry so long)

Image Comparison Analysis:

Comparing the results from the Nikon D50 digital SLR with the Nikon D70s and the Canon Rebel XT, a number of conclusions can be made.

In our opinion, the Nikon D50 provides the most consistent and "best" straight out of camera results. The in-camera processing that occurs in the Nikon D50, in terms of sharpening and tone adjustments, produces images that are very pleasing to the eye when viewed straight out of the camera. Ideal for users who want to go directly to print without having to worry about software post processing in a computer.

The Canon Digital Rebel XT comes in a close second, however, the Rebel XT by default applies less in camera sharpening, which has a tendancy to make the images look a little softer. We did notice that even after post processing, the Canon Rebel XT images did not look as sharp as those from the Nikon D50, indicating that Nikon's new AF-S DX 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G ED lens is a bit sharper than the Canon EF-S lens that comes in the Rebel XT kit. Nevertheless, the Canon Rebel XT produces very good image quality in its own right.

In comparison, the images from the Nikon D70s have a tendancy to look a little flat and softer than those from the Nikon D50, when viewed straight out of the camera. Nikon has adopted a much more conservative approach to in-camera processing with the Nikon D70s, realizing that there are certain disadvantages as opposed to proper post processing with external software applications, such as Nikon Capture or Adobe Photoshop.

As can be seen in the sample images above, the Nikon D50 produces images that are very pleasing out of the box. When compared with the Nikon D70s image that has been post processed, however, you can see that there are blown highlight details in the Nikon D50 image that are still well maintained in the Nikon D70s shot. We suspect that the intended users of the Nikon D50 will find that the advantage of being able to have very good image quality out of camera by simply using Auto settings, will outweight the negatives as mentioned.

Applying a slight unsharp mask and levels adjustment in Photoshop to the Nikon D70s "Landscape Mode" image, produces results that outperforms both the Nikon D50 and the Canon Digital Rebel XT with their respective kit lenses. To be fair, the Nikon D70s comes bundled with a superior (and higher priced) lens, the AF-S DX 18-70mm f3/5-5.6G IF-ED Nikkor zoom, so the results should not be surprising.

With respect to the 1600 ISO noise comparison, it can be seen that the Nikon D50 image is cleaner compared to the Canon Rebel XT depending on the colour channel. The Nikon D70s images at 1600 ISO are noisier than both the other models.

We feel that this is as a result of less in camera high ISO noise reduction being applied in the Nikon D70s, as well as the fact that both the Nikon D50 and the Canon Rebel XT feature a different sensor design compared to the Nikon D70s. If you are going to cover indoor events and rock concerts, at higher ISO settings the Nikon D50 might just be the answer.

With respect to the Auto White Balance (AWB) setting, the Nikon D50 produces slightly warmer tones compared to the Digital Rebel XT and the Nikon D70s. All three cameras did a pretty good job when set to AWB in our tests, however, nothing beats setting white balance based on manual presets if possible.

Bottom line, if you are looking for very good image quality overall and a user friendly camera system, you can not go wrong with either the Nikon D50 or the Canon Rebel XT DSLR kit package.

If you have a preference for Canon, for those that are planning to use the camera for more advanced applications you might want to take a closer look at some of Canon's step up zoom lenses with the Rebel XT, and as a better option due to improved performance and overall durability, the popular Canon EOS 20D DSLR.

Likewise, for advanced amateurs and those with professional applications who are looking to buy a Nikon, and want the creative control that post processing offers and desire the absolute best output in comparison, in our view there is simply no doubt, seriously consider the Nikon D70s kit with Nikon's AF-S DX 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED lens. Otherwise, in our opinion, the Nikon D50 kit package looks like a great choice.

Here is a link that compares all things between the D70 and the D50.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05042003nikond70s.asp

[hobbydog]

Can't wait to see the pics. What lens are you going to start with? Let me know when you get it and I will show you a couple good places to shoot some ducks and geese.

[Steve Foss]

Way to go Buzz!!!!

I've never liked that 18-55 kit that comes with the XT and 20D. I'm not surprised it isn't as sharp as the Nikkor kit that comes with the Nikons. Too bad for Canon. I don't doubt they are losing some sales because that lens drags down an otherwise excellent sensor/processor package.

[buzzsaw]

Hobby, your on!! I'd love to take some pics! I got the package that Catfish desribed.. the 18-55mm Nikkor lens and then I picked up the 70 - 300mm Quantaray (which I know nothing about, I think it's the Ritz camera deal) If I don't like that lens I can return it within 30 days... I took 140 pictures so far today and like it, but really have nothing to compare it to. Please give me opinions on a good zoom lens guys!! I was going to head over to National Camera Exchange in the morning and see what they have. I couldn't bring myself to spend the $1,700 on the image stabilizing 70-33mm lens (I think that was the size) so until I get to that point I will be tripod guy on those longer shots that need to be steady. Thanks for the kudos guys, it makes me feel good about the purchase. I love the speed of the camera and think the autofocus on this thing is incredible. Hobby, we need to talk! Tom Wilson also lives fairly close (Cologne) so lets figure something out. Also, have you set a date in January for all of us amatuers and semi pro's to hook up? I'd like to meet Stfcatfish as well, I just know Ely is a hike from the cities. I'll post some pics Sunday, we have people coming over shortly and the wife is about to take me out to the woodshed!