Quality Deer Management

[Cooter]

I think QDM is great where it is feasible and frustrating where it isn't. The first and most important step is to determine if its realistic in your area.

[Pistolero]

If you want to decrease the deer population, you shot doe’s. If you want to increase the deer population you shot bucks. If Minnesota needs to reduce the deer population in some areas next year, they should adopt a buck lottery or earn a buck program. I follow the KISS principle. If you want to follow QDM, great, go for it. But just because I do not buy into your QDM program does not mean that I do not understand “NATURE” and how it works.

[Beeber]

Tony,

Drop me a note next August and we can discuss bow hunting opportunities.

[email protected]

Have a good one

[bigbucks]

In answer to your last question Blackjack, all of them, ever. I can tell you every deer I've shot, no matter how big or small, where I shot it, how far, approximate time of day, how big, etc. I finally started to write it down this year, as there's enough of them after 24-25 years of hunting that it's hard to remember all of them. I realize I'm a bit of a fanatic, like a lot of us on this site, but I appreciate all deer. I too now steer away from shooting the smaller bucks generally, but I'm still a meat hunter at heart & always will be. I really don't believe in straight trophy hunting.

I'm also like you in that I keep all of my racks, no matter the size. I did somehow manage to lose the rack of my first buck, also my smallest, which still bugs me.

[DinnerPail]

After watching this topic for a while now and just would like to express my view on this subject.

In my mind the wanting and having to shoot a big buck has gotten way out of line. To me the shows on TV and articles in magizines give everyone the impression that big bucks are the norm and you shouldn't settle for anything less. Your chance might only come around once, so if and when it does make the best of it and enjoy all the others as well.

I believe there are plenty of big bucks out there, especially with the mid winters we have had the past few years.

I feel to have the opportunity to get a big buck you need to put in time and learn the area you hunt, figure out there patterns and adapt to changing conditions. You just can't show up friday before opener and expect this to be the same as the last time you go out.

I, myself have change the way I hunt as opposed the the ways that we hunted when I was a kid. I have tried many new techniques(some good, some bad) and can say that it has paid dividends for myself and the others I hunt with. Over the past 5 years we have put a few nice bucks on the wall, 2-8pt(120 class), 1-10pt(130 class) and 1-10pt(140class), all over 200 lbs dressed. Plus several other nice bucks.

So my conclusion is they are out there you just need to put in the time and learn everytime you are out. I am already working on next years hunt already.

I am always willing to share with anyone I meet and don't claim to know everything.Just enjoy hunting and being around others that do to.

Fishing is just a filler between hunting seasons.

[bigbucks]

I'd be curious to know how you mean you're working on next year's hunt? I'm working on next year's hunt, as well as this year's all the time, but curious to know what you're doing to prepare.

We started building a nice permanent stand where we tried a portable a bit this year. There's a field there that's been a grass meadow for probably at least 15 years, that's been plowed & we know will have corn in next year. I saw a very large deer walk right past the portable that was there, one night while bowhunting a different nearby stand. Also I'm always scouting deer movements & looking for places to ask about hunting next fall.

[DinnerPail]

bigbucks, Like you stated in one of your earlier posts I'll be out scouting, always looking at new areas and just keeping track of what is going on in the areas we hunt. I have a place near Grand Rapids and spend as much time as I can there. A lot of the area we hunt is owned by the paper company so keeping track of the logging that goes on in a big part of how and where we hunt. We have had some great spots logged out from under us and with logging comes roads and with roads comes more hunters. I use to spend a lot of time putting up stands but have went mostly to using portables due to most times went I built a permanent stand it always seemed to be in the wrong spot. Another thing I like to watch is what they are feeding on, was there a good crop of acorns, are they feeding on buds etc. One of my biggest is to find out where people around you are hunting and if possible when. I have many times taken deer where others have hunted well after they have left and things quieted down. I also think one of the biggest factors is the weather, it makes or breaks a hunt in my opion.

I hope this helps.

[BLACKJACK]

jlm, I agree, after shooting lots of small bucks over the years, I'm ready to move onto a bigger buck. Thats why I passed on one earlier in the year, but mainly for the reason that I realize if I put my tag on the first small one I see, the opportunity to tag Mr. Big later is gone.

As others have stated, I'm scouting year around, always looking for spots, funnels, etc. I may start work on a permanent tree stand this weekend and get it out yet this year, if the weather stays good. And a scouting camera is moving farther up my wish list!! And I have a couple more spots where I want to put food plots. Always more you can do to help your deer hunting, whether its scouting, reading, etc.

[Pistolero]

Okay, do not be offended by this, but I’ve watched this thread and still see only two things being pushed here: 1) big/trophy bucks 2) convincing your neighbors to participate in the big/trophy bucks program. These still come across as being your main goals, not that that is the case but still just read what you have presented here and tell me that people are going to think any different.

My goal for where I hunt (area 245) is to reduce the herd size. The DNR estimates for 2004, was 24-43 deer per square mile in area 245. They do not tell us what deer numbers they would like to see though. Last year I took two doe’s which helped but this year I took two bucks, I thought that the second deer was a doe, I missed seeing the small horns and was not happy when I found out it was a buck. I am interested in harvesting deer and keeping the herd size at an appropriate level. I am not interested in rack size and next year I plan on shooting doe’s only.

You QDM guys stated here that if I read the information that is out there about QDM, that I will jump on the QDM bandwagon. I have read information on it and am not convinced yet, so give it your best shot and provided the links to the sites that you feel do the best job of describing the QDM Program. Okay?

[Mark Christianson]

No offense Pistolero

We each have our own wants/needs. No question.

I think I use the QDM statement incorrectly myself.

We do not practice QDM. We practice selective harvest.

Our main goal is larger bucks. Period. I won't lie.

We do not shoot antlerless deer on our farm. If one comes by wounded, we will take it. We figure there are enough deer shot on surrounding properties that we do not need to take any more out, besides "nicer bucks".

So yes, I would love for neighboring properties to think about the potential for larger bucks, and to pass on small bucks. I am not forcing my opinion on them, but we have suggested what we are doing to a couple of them. They just stand there with blank looks for the most part.

Some people deer hunt for one reason.

To shoot deer. Period. Hard to change that mentality in some, and honestly it is their choice.

My personal hope is that some people may read this and think that, "hey, I kinda like the idea of being a bit more selective, and maybe we could try this in some form."

[jlm]

I did re-read everything and am somewhat puzzled by your response/questions. More than big racks was spoke of, at least in my opinion. QDM is not for everyone, no question about that. However, many MN hunters are interested in starting better management practices on their land or in their hunting areas. This thread is intended to provide information to all of those who care to take a look at QDM. It is also intended to give those out there who practice QDM an opportunity to express their results, both good and bad. We can get ideas from one another on what is helpful and what is not. QDM is not only about big bucks as you state, its about land stewardship, population control, overall herd health, and many other practices and philosophies which are helpful in the management of deer. If you provide me with your email address, I will be more than happy to provide you with some links and actual people that you can call and ask any question you would like to ask. I for one am not trying to push QDM on anyone. This thread is only intended for anyone that is interested. Good luck all!

[Pistolero]

jlm,

Here you go.

Thanks

[jlm]

Information is sent!

[tripper]

jlm, my story is that I just do not feel that any group or groupes should be telling others what size buck they can shoot. This year my party took five deer, all bucks. My grandson (12) took a forker, his first deer and year of hunting. My son also took a forker, thought is was a doe in the brush, Another guy took a nubbin buck,he just doesn't care what he shoots if he has the tag for it. Another guy also took a nubbin thinking it was the doe he had seen go into the brush, he felt bad about that mistake. I had two doe tags one was filled and my buck tag was filled by the secound buck my son took,(8 pointer) with small rack. This was a older deer big in body but the small racks are the normal for where I hunt no matter the age. I beleif the genitics are there but outside of all the feed stations people have in the area the food is not. We have been trying to thin the does in our area but for some strange reason we just don't see any. I don't know how meny bucks were past on this season (14 days) but only two does were seen with no chance of a shot.

My personal way is that as long as I can shoot a doe or buck I will pass on smaller bucks util twards the end of season. If no tags are filled then I will put a deer of the body size I want in the freezer.

If big racks are a secoundary objective of qdm then lets hear less about them. I agree with much of what qdm stands for but I do not agree with passing laws to force my way of hunting on others, and putting point restrictions on bucks is doing just that.

Everybody wants to claim the majority agree when agueing a poin. I remembe the poll take a few years back when the qistion was asked do you want to see bigger bucks. Of coarse most people that answered yes with out thinking what was realy meant by the quistion. Why not ask do you want point restrictions enforced to try and get bigger racks?

[Cooter]

Haven't read each and every post in detail, but just glancing saw the topic of antler restrictions. Hey I'd love to see it come to WI but I don't think it could happen anytime soon. You never know though, earn a buck has been quite a drastic change - another I have no problem with.

[PikeTipper]

Isn't part of QDM reducing the doe population so that only the dominant bucks get to breed thus most of the bucks that are born are from bucks with genes to grow bigger antlers? If your goal is to have bigger bucks then I would think shooting does is in your best interest.

I too practice QDM in an area that is a "brown it's down" mentallity but I figure every small buck I pass up on is one more that might survive until the next year. I definately agree though that this should not be a govt. regulation but a personal choice. When my son is old enough to hunt I want him to be able to shoot at anything just to get the experience and have some success.

[Mark Christianson]

I think partly you are correct Pike.

I don't even claim to know the "ins/outs" of QDM, but believe me.... The guys around us do PLENTY to thin the deer herd. I don't want to add to the list of does shot, and end up with an even slimmer population of does. Personally I like the idea of having a few "extra" does living any way. I have this stigma that if there are does around, bucks will come.

To your point about genetics though.

There are 3 vitals in big buck growth.

1. Age

2. Nutrition

3. genetics

From what I have read and seen, this is the order of importance to acheive larger bucks.

Is it scientifically proven in that order? I have no idea, but its what I have chosen to adopt for my management efforts.

I have a direct influence on the age of the deer by passing small ones. And I have a direct influence on nutrition, hence my posts about food plots in the Deer forum.

[PikeTipper]

Good point BLB,

If I shoot all of the does then there is no reason for the bucks to come around.

[jlm]

One thing that is important regarding QDM is to know the number of deer your land can sustain. One problem with the population of today is that if we have a real bad Winter, we are going to have some major deer losses in certain areas because there is too much competition for Winter browse. By reducing the deer population, you are also increasing the survival of the deer on your property because there will be enough browse to sustain them through the Winter. Does that make sense, I did not word that very well? Of course, you can alter any or all of this by having a feeding program, food plots, etc. Good luck all!

[Pistolero]

jlm, how does one determine how many deer an area can handle? In the area that I hunt (area 245) the deer per square mile was 23-38 in 2002, 24-43 in 2003 & 2004 which the DNR considers high. What would be a good deer number? Any thoughts?

[bigbucks]

I think that's a great question Pistolero & one I'd like to know the answer to as well.

I'd also like to know how you found out what the deer density is in your area?

[Pistolero]

Quote:

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I'd also like to know how you found out what the deer density is in your area?

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I found it at the DNR site.

[jlm]

I am not sure that the DNR estimates are always accurate. Their mothods of estimating deer have a very high degree of error. Your best bet is to do the scouting yourself to determine the number of deer in your area. Their are a couple of formulas out there that are pretty good. However, if you know your area well, you probably have a good rough estimate of how many deer are there. If you would like to know how many deer your area can sustain, you could contact one of the wildlife biologist with QDM. They will come out and see what sort of plant life, browse, etc. your area has and then they will determine the correct number of deer for that given area. It is a great service and free if you are a member of your local QDM organization. There are others out there that will do this as well, some charge and some are free. They will also give you tips on how to improve the area for a better carrying capacity. QDM is a great program if you really want to improve the environment for wildlife!

[Pistolero]

Thanks for the info jlm. Ya, I figured that the DNR deer size estimates were just educated guesses for a large area. I was hoping that there might be estimates as to how many deer an area can handle, so I emailed the DNR with this question, to see if they have them. You would think that they would since they need them to determine how many bonus permits to issue.

I hunt 40 acres of private land, which I do not own. Wish I did because I would love to do a food plot. I spent some time helping a friend with their food plot last spring and loved every second of it. I think that it’s the farming part that I enjoyed so much and working outdoors.

Anyway if I find any estimates I will post them.

[carpshooterdeluxe]

this has been the best thread i have read on this site to date and i just couldnt wait any longer to throw my hat into the ring. Where i grew up and still hunt in the agricultural lands of west central minnesota it is very tough to manage a property to ensure nice bucks. Personally when i buy an archery tag (now non resident $156) i do so for the ability to get out and see what there is for deer in the area and for the possibility at a nice buck. During slug season however, i hunt with a large party where freezer filling is a larger concern. typically we obtain enough doe permits that we do not have to harvest small bucks but sometimes a deer is a deer. this year i shot a 4 point on the last day of the season and am proud and sad at the same time. i would have liked to have passed the deer but i knew that i would not have any more oppertunities to go bowhunting this fall and it was my last chance. Unfortunately too often in our party when a nice buck is shot we here the phrase "that would have been a wall hanger next year." hopefully i as well as the others in our party can start to pass on some of the smaller bucks and still feel we had a successful hunt. not to rant too long but also as i read this thread i felt that something was missing from all this discussion...on certain properties where qdm is practiced religiously....if only the large bucks are shot either early during archery season or right away during gun season; arent you decreasing your probability of the large bucks doing the breeding and passing their genetics to future generations? i can understand the benifits of qdm on large properties with "holding power" for the deer but i really cannot see the benifits of a state mandated practice on lands like i hunt where a buck can roam 3-6 miles in one day. ok this is way too long so i will "shut up" now!