Deer density vs Quality Deer Management?

[Jameson]

"tags" is not the same as "license" in this state. Helps if everyone is talking the same language.

[BLACKJACK]

Another theme that has popped up here it that hunters should be limited to one weapon/one season. The DNR has increased the number of seasons and licenses in order to increase hunter opportunity, and I think that is a good thing. Let hunters spend more time in the woods. Thats what is going to attract and keep more hunters. The deer limit per hunter should be the limiting factor. Granted by being in the woods longer a hunters chance of filling the allowed tag(s) goes up, but don't cut down on hunting opportunity just because the tag limits have not been set correctly.

[smsmith]

In 2005 the DNR estimated our pre-fawn herd at 850K. In 2012 the estimate was 570K. Given their penchant for being "optimistic" in their estimates, I strongly believe that 2013 was the first year (at least in recent history) where more permits were sold (around 750K) than there were existing deer in the state.

[PurpleFloyd]

"tags" is not the same as "license" in this state. Helps if everyone is talking the same language.

Just a difference in terminology but now that I think about it you are probably right. We always refer to the licenses as tags but I suppose in places where they distribute bonus tags like parade candy it could have a different meaning? Do the bonus tags count in the numbers for licenses sold? Not living where it is even an option I am not sure how they even work.

[PurpleFloyd]

In 2005 the DNR estimated our pre-fawn herd at 850K. In 2012 the estimate was 570K. Given their penchant for being "optimistic" in their estimates, I strongly believe that 2013 was the first year (at least in recent history) where more permits were sold (around 750K) than there were existing deer in the state.

What was the post fawn herd because that is the population we were dealing with when the hunt occurred. And yes, some fawns are harvested.

[smsmith]

Don't have those estimates right at hand. Yes, plenty of fawns are harvested each year, no doubt.

The point was that using the DNR's estimates our herd dropped by 33% in 7 years, but the number of tags sold has not dropped (last estimate I could find was for 2012 and that was right around 749K)

Marrett Grund shared a research paper that he had done that stated the recruitment rate in most of MN is 1.9 fawns/doe. The report did not state how many of those 1.9 survived until season began however. From what I can tell, that 1.9 figure must be close to what the DNR uses to determine post-fawn numbers. I'd take issue with the assumption that nearly 2 fawns per doe make it to the beginning of hunting season.

[HNTNBUX]

For those that want to now limit hunters to one area, one season and one deer I would agree to that if you then agree to APR statewide. If your purpose is to reduce harvest and pressure let's go all the way and add no party hunting and no driving deer too.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

I'd take issue with the assumption that nearly 2 fawns per doe make it to the beginning of hunting season.

That would be laughable if someone actually thought that to be true......

[smsmith]

Ya...I agree. But if you look at the pre-fawn estimate for '12 and then look at the DNR press release for the total herd estimate in'12 (1.1 million I think?)....the assumption has to be well over 1 fawn per doe. That is unless the assumption is that of the 570K deer in the state before fawning the vast majority were mature does (a total b.s. assumption IMHO).

[mntatonka]

"tags" is not the same as "license" in this state. Helps if everyone is talking the same language.

in the DNR harvest report, it is. License sales include non-resident licenses, youth licenses, all season deer licenses, and bonus/managment permits. In that bonus permit number is the tags for managed and intensive areas.

[PurpleFloyd]

For those that want to now limit hunters to one area, one season and one deer I would agree to that if you then agree to APR statewide. If your purpose is to reduce harvest and pressure let's go all the way and add no party hunting and no driving deer too.

Yeah, and ban hunting on public lands as well.Turn all public land into wildlife refuges so if you want to hunt then buy land, lease land or pay to hunt. Lets really do it right.

[PurpleFloyd]

The point was that using the DNR's estimates our herd dropped by 33% in 7 years, but the number of tags sold has not dropped (last estimate I could find was for 2012 and that was right around 749K)

[mntatonka]

Here's a listing of how many total tags have been sold starting in 2001, and remember, in the harvest report, total license sales includes all types of tags (except depredation and free landowner I believe). In reality, the number of tags sold over the last few years has dropped by nearly 70,000 since the high in 2008

625,681

633,862

718,709

704,152

694,426

690,081

655,825

792,148

749,190

753,274

759,275

723,716

724,586

[smsmith]

Where did that info come from mntatonka? I ask only because I really thought I had seen 749K tags of all kinds were sold in '12.

No matter, if your numbers are correct the number of tags sold has dropped about 8% from '08 to '13 while the herd numbers have dropped 37%

[Jameson]

...That is unless the assumption is that of the 570K deer in the state before fawning the vast majority were mature does (a total b.s. assumption IMHO).

What else do you think will be making up the herd this spring? Bucks that had antlers last fall? shot or died this winter. Last year's fawns? died this winter. Southern part of the state has a doe lottery and most the bucks get shot, northern part of the state has harsh winters and what doesn't get shot, get hits hard by the winter. The vast majority of the spring deer population is going to be adult does.

[mntatonka]

Where did that info come from mntatonka? I ask only because I really thought I had seen 749K tags of all kinds were sold in '12.

No matter, if your numbers are correct the number of tags sold has dropped about 8% from '08 to '13 while the herd numbers have dropped 37%

pulled it straight from the page in the 2013 harvest report, and added the rows that had "total license sales" for each season.

[smsmith]

What else do you think will be making up the herd this spring? Bucks that had antlers last fall? shot or died this winter. Last year's fawns? died this winter. Southern part of the state has a doe lottery and most the bucks get shot, northern part of the state has harsh winters and what doesn't get shot, get hits hard by the winter. The vast majority of the spring deer population is going to be adult does.

No way. Fawn mortality was not significant in at least the southern 2/3 of the state this year. Some? Sure. All? No way. I can say that the vast majority of deer I've seen this winter were either doe or buck fawns. Very, very few adult deer of either sex. I'd bet that going into most springs around 30-40% of the population is an adult (not the previous year's fawn) doe. Over 50% of our annual harvest year after year are antlered bucks...those have to be coming from somewhere

[PurpleFloyd]

Where did that info come from mntatonka? I ask only because I really thought I had seen 749K tags of all kinds were sold in '12.

No matter, if your numbers are correct the number of tags sold has dropped about 8% from '08 to '13 while the herd numbers have dropped 37%

A couple things to consider.

Some years back there was a big push to recruit more young hunters into hunting because the hunting population was shrinking and aging. This led to the introduction of many forms of youth hunting that were previously not offered. It started where you could bring a child with who was not old enough for gun safety and let them shoot a deer with your license. Then it changed to allow them to have their own gun and their own tag so they could harvest their own deer as long as they were in your immediate area.

I know in our hunting party ( Yeppers- Our party) we had 6 youth that hunted under that when they were younger and one still was last year but next year we will have all of those children now with gun safety certificates who will have had a few years of experience deer hunting and they are the future of hunting in our family as some of the guys are at retirement age and will at some point stop hunting. I am sure that program has increased license sales but IMHO it was a very worthwhile thing to do.Better than having them playing video games or sitting at home eating chips.

The overall population is aging and I would bet that over the net decade unless we continue to recruit more youth into hunting we will see a decline in the licenses sold as more and more boomer retire and a lower population and more urban generation of youth come to age. This will naturally reduce the number of hunters and the number of deer harvested over the next 25 years.

Lastly, getting back to blackjacks comment. The increase in pressure on the doe population due to a more liberal doe lottery and a push by certain groups to harvest a doe instead of a young buck if you want meat in the freezer as well as the stuff above all took a toll on the number of does and thus the number of fawns produced which led to what we have today.

Lots of hunters still want to hunt for the reason that we have been hunting forever and that is to harvest a deer to eat it. Not everyone wants to only harvest bucks over 8 points and their way of hunting and their philosophy on what they harvest may not be shared by all hunters but it needs to be respected by hunters as a legitimate form of hunting because at it's core, that is what hunting is about. The commercialization of the industry is something new and will continue to exist but it is not the be all and end all of the sport.

[PurpleFloyd]

Southern part of the state has a doe lottery and most the bucks get shot,

Where do you get the data for this? I live in the south and hunted it all my life and never have most of the bucks been shot.

[smsmith]

P.F. - I agree that getting youth involved is a great thing. Problem is...in many areas its pretty tough to KEEP them involved when they sit for days and don't see a deer.

Are you possibly insinuating that the DNR is thinking they have to reduce the deer herd now and keep it low due to a possible "hunter shortage" in the coming years?

[SmellEsox]

How do we really know or sure? The DNR estimates 1M deer every year it seems and we sell fewer tags than that a year so if you go by the available data we do not sell more licenses than we have deer.

We DO sell more licenses than we have "Mature" bucks and if everyone only shot mature bucks we would either have absolutely zero left after the season or the population would need to increase by multiples to have enough of them to fill the tags and have enough deer of the other sexes and age ranges to keep things in balance.

If everyone just shot mature bucks, we'd have a whole generation of immature bucks becoming mature the next year. And there'd be a lot of deer, bucks and does, because no one would be shooting antlerless deer. The herd would increase to huge numbers and it would be a big problem.

What would be great is if DNR managed for high enough numbers that all hunters would be satisfied. You could then have APR and there'd be plenty of does for meat hunters to shoot a couple and there'd be bigger bucks for everyone to shoot. And you could do it without driving the population to unacceptable levels. It's nice that you have plenty of mature bucks down in your area. That is great, but there aren't many up in the best deer habitat in the state on the transition zone.

[SmellEsox]

A couple things to consider.

Some years back there was a big push to recruit more young hunters into hunting because the hunting population was shrinking and aging. This led to the introduction of many forms of youth hunting that were previously not offered. It started where you could bring a child with who was not old enough for gun safety and let them shoot a deer with your license. Then it changed to allow them to have their own gun and their own tag so they could harvest their own deer as long as they were in your immediate area.

I know in our hunting party ( Yeppers- Our party) we had 6 youth that hunted under that when they were younger and one still was last year but next year we will have all of those children now with gun safety certificates who will have had a few years of experience deer hunting and they are the future of hunting in our family as some of the guys are at retirement age and will at some point stop hunting. I am sure that program has increased license sales but IMHO it was a very worthwhile thing to do.Better than having them playing video games or sitting at home eating chips.

It is fantastic that you did this for the kids! However, I'm sure, even if those programs were not in place, you would have done everything in your power to get those kids involved because it is a priority for you. I don't think you need special programs or licenses to get kids involved. The best hunter retention and recruitment tool is plenty of deer in the woods. Like others have said, when you sit for days and the kids see nothing, how excited are they going to be for deer hunting. I took my 13 y.o. out with me bowhunting 8-10 times last fall. We saw deer once. How excited do you think he is for this year? Not very. DNR can expand seasons all they want. If there's few deer out there, people, especially kids, aren't going to enjoy it. Right now it is the definition of insanity. You know, when you slam your head against the wall many times hoping for a different result everytime? That is what deer hunting has become in a lot of areas.

[BLACKJACK]

Lots of hunters still want to hunt for the reason that we have been hunting forever and that is to harvest a deer to eat it. Not everyone wants to only harvest bucks over 8 points and their way of hunting and their philosophy on what they harvest may not be shared by all hunters but it needs to be respected by hunters as a legitimate form of hunting because at it's core, that is what hunting is about. The commercialization of the industry is something new and will continue to exist but it is not the be all and end all of the sport.

+1

[mntatonka]

It is fantastic that you did this for the kids! However, I'm sure, even if those programs were not in place, you would have done everything in your power to get those kids involved because it is a priority for you. I don't think you need special programs or licenses to get kids involved. The best hunter retention and recruitment tool is plenty of deer in the woods. Like others have said, when you sit for days and the kids see nothing, how excited are they going to be for deer hunting. I took my 13 y.o. out with me bowhunting 8-10 times last fall. We saw deer once. How excited do you think he is for this year? Not very. DNR can expand seasons all they want. If there's few deer out there, people, especially kids, aren't going to enjoy it. Right now it is the definition of insanity. You know, when you slam your head against the wall many times hoping for a different result everytime? That is what deer hunting has become in a lot of areas.

The best retention tool in our party is to get them off their punkers and chase some deer. Teach them the thrill of the hunt, not the value of the antlers. When I first started hunting as a kid, the last thing I wanted to do was be bored out of my mind sitting in a tree stand waiting for a deer to walk by. It was way more fun to get out with all our buddies and go out to find the deer.

Kids these days generally want action and activity, they don't have the patience to sit around and wait for things to happen. I was the same way, and didn't really learn patience until my daughter was born. I used to hate sitting in a tree stand without something to do or something going on, now (when I have time) I can sit in a tree stand for hours on end and relax.

[SmellEsox]

From the time I started hunting in the 1970's, everyone I knew wanted to shoot a big buck. Things haven't changed as much as you think. And you talk about hunter recruitment, if we indeed want to recruit and retain deer hunters, deer management is going to have to evolve with the younger generation of hunter. At the DNR public input meetings, many of the younger hunters wanted APR. They want something different in their hunting experience. If they don't experience it, they will go somewhere else or quit and do something else. Every hunter I know is a meat hunter whether they target big bucks or any deer. Everyone I know eats what they shoot or they find someone who will eat it.