WHY

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Well, I see this thread has morphed into a few rich guys talking about how great they manage their lands to manipulate "their" deer herds for big bone.

So what are us "little" people supposed to do to improve deer numbers and habitat. Scream and holler at the gub'mint? Cuz we all know that does a lot of good.

[smsmith]

Well, I see this thread has morphed into a few rich guys talking about how great they manage their lands to manipulate "their" deer herds for big bone.

So what are us "little" people supposed to do to improve deer numbers and habitat. Scream and holler at the gub'mint? Cuz we all know that does a lot of good.

"rich guys"....lol I can't speak for anyone else, but that's pretty funny if you're throwing me into that category.

You'll notice that my concerns are not about my place, but about those places where folks can't/won't/don't know how to improve the habitat. I could withdraw into a shell, focus solely on my place (i.e. work my arse off) and improve the hunting here for myself....or I could do what I'm doing. Become involved with the MN Deer Density Initiative and attempt to make a difference for many hunters(obviously including myself)

[LandDr]

Remember that anything that starts with "white" the deer LOVE to eat...white spruce, white pine, white oak, white cedar, etc...so you need to protect them during the early growing years. When designing "infrastructure", I just stay away from those...I need function over feed in design of thermal cover.

Also remember that all pines will lose their bottom boughs some day and wind and snow will blow right on thru...white cedar will do this also. I would recommend Rocky Mt Juniper over cedar...more green in color, more conical in shape, better thermal cover and more hardy.

NWSG is one of the best ways to provide doe bedding as long as it is the thick design. It is amazing how many does walk out of my natives starting at around 3:15pm. If the NWSG are protected from drifting snow that would fill them in, it would be a highly utilized bedding area.

[LandDr]

I'm with smsmith...trying to help other people have something better rather than just work on my place. I love getting photos from clients regarding their food plots, game cameras or some harvest pics...especially with the kids.

Also...there is cost share thru state and federal programs for a lot of this stuff. But again, it goes back to how it is used and designed.

Hopefully this thread won't digress.

[SmellEsox]

Actually, like I said before, where smsmith has his property, the main limiting factor on deer density is high velocity lead. Habitat is adequate to sustain populations of 20 dpsm w/o any improvement at all. It could obviously be better with improvement, but at densities that ag will tolerate, the current habitat is fine. Managing habitat on a landscape level is not cost effective and there isn't enough money out there for every landowner to do it with cost share. This is some of the best habitat in MN (transition zone) and stretches basically from the NE metro to Little Falls to Fergus Falls and DL. It is productive land/woods and should have more deer on it. We don't want or need 1 deer/acre. We want 15-20/sq. mi pre-fawn. That would be a sustainable number of deer w/ the current habitat.

[LandDr]

SmellEsox...do you feel the deer are under stress this winter from all of the snow, drifted in cover and unavailable food?

[smsmith]

SmellEsox...do you feel the deer are under stress this winter from all of the snow, drifted in cover and unavailable food?

Winter is always the most stressful time for deer in northern states. The deer around here are in great shape right now. Loads of food around and plenty of thermal cover in the area as well. The defining months will be March and April. If we get a ridiculously late spring again....could be ugly.

I don't think the MN DNR even takes the WSI into account this far south...maybe northern Todd Cty....but not down as far as my place is.

[SmellEsox]

Exactly smsmith. It is rare to have winterkill around here. I think we lost some back in the late 90's, but overall, winterkill is rare. Most death around here is human induced.

[LandDr]

There are pockets of food and cover...but in general, the deer are under more stress than we would want them to be under. And we are one really bad snow storm away from major stress as I mentioned before.

This is under current deer densities. Now up it to 15-20 deer per square mile as was mentioned as a goal...more mouths to feed and cover to provide, but no increase in carrying capacity (food and cover as I have expressed).

If we had 15-20 deer per square mile with the current winter landscape conditions and still with February and March ahead of us, I'm sorry but my position is that our deer heard would be in big trouble or at least at very high risk of being in big trouble.

Furthermore, whether you are interested in bigger deer for the table or bigger racks, deer under stress have lower body weights and smaller racks. I personally don't know how anyone can say there is enough food and cover out there in sufficient amounts statewide with the amount of habitat loss that has happened and improved farming practices. Maybe with mild winters...but not normal MN winters or tough winters.

"Plan for the worst and hope for the best"

[smsmith]

1. If we had 15-20 deer per square mile with the current winter landscape conditions and still with February and March ahead of us, I'm sorry but my position is that our deer heard would be in big trouble or at least at very high risk of being in big trouble.

2. Furthermore, whether you are interested in bigger deer for the table or bigger racks, deer under stress have lower body weights and smaller racks.

3. I personally don't know how anyone can say there is enough food and cover out there in sufficient amounts statewide with the amount of habitat loss that has happened and improved farming practices. Maybe with mild winters...but not normal MN winters or tough winters.

We'll have to agree to disagree on 1. The cover and available food here is far superior to what I had in WI....where my overwinter/pre fawn densities were in the 20s and 30s. Winter kill occurred on the properties I managed there once..in the form of a single buck fawn. I cannot confirm it was winter that killed it either...may have been car struck and then died.

2...that's a topic I'll save for another discussion

3...statewide? Nope, I'm not talking statewide. I'm talking where the central farm region meets the woods. In other words...the best habitat in the state.

[LandDr]

Sounds good. Keep up the pressure on the DNR. Stop in and say HI some time if you're in the area or if you are at one of the sport shows.

[PurpleFloyd]

I may do that. I'm trying to put together a "property tour" with some other QDMA members come spring.

Other QDMA members?

[smsmith]

Other QDMA members?

Yes PF...I am indeed a member of QDMA. Have been since '99 I believe. Is that a terrible thing? What drew me there back in '99 was an internet search on a habitat question. The QDMA forums are hands down the single best source of information on habitat and food plots that exists.

I've never found a local chapter with whom I feel comfortable joining (WI or MN).

edit..I should add that I am also a MDHA and MBI member. Some of the folks who'd be invited to the property tour I mentioned are also members of QDMA/MDHA/MBI...some are members of MDHA only...some are members of no orgs/groups. Know the commonality? Habitat...habitat...habitat

[Getanet]

Just out of curiosity, when you invited the MDHA to the DDI meeting tomorrow night did you contact the HQ, or the local Snake River chapter?

[PurpleFloyd]

Yes PF...I am indeed a member of QDMA. Have been since '99 I believe. Is that a terrible thing? What drew me there back in '99 was an internet search on a habitat question. The QDMA forums are hands down the single best source of information on habitat and food plots that exists. The forums at QDMA are the only forums I've ever come across without the infighting/name calling/childlike behavior/bullying that I've encountered everywhere else. A great number of the users of those forums are not QDMA members. The forums are open to everyone.

I've never found a local chapter with whom I feel comfortable joining (WI or MN).

edit..I should add that I am also a MDHA and MBI member. Some of the folks who'd be invited to the property tour I mentioned are also members of QDMA/MDHA/MBI...some are members of MDHA only...some are members of no orgs/groups but use the QDMA forums. Know the commonality? Habitat...habitat...habitat

Nope. Nothing wrong with it. However, you did a fair job of trying to distance the MDDI from these groups in the other thread in an effort to garner support from those who may not necessarily be on board with their agendas. But it is hard to distance yourself if you are a part of them.Obviously you are free to participate in any group you see fit.

[smsmith]

Nope. Nothing wrong with it. However, you did a fair job of trying to distance the MDDI from these groups in the other thread in an effort to garner support from those who may not necessarily be on board with their agendas. But it is hard to distance yourself if you are a part of them.Obviously you are free to participate in any group you see fit.

I did? I clearly stated that members of the QDMA, MDHA, MBI, and the MWA were all involved in developing the MDDI and the petition.

For the record, QDMA national does not support state mandated APR's...if that's a concern of yours (or others)

[smsmith]

Just out of curiosity, when you invited the MDHA to the DDI meeting tomorrow night did you contact the HQ, or the local Snake River chapter?

I did not invite any of the MDHA members from the State or local chapters. Some other folks took care of that invite. I believe that both HQ and local chapters were invited.

[PurpleFloyd]

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[smsmith]

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