Man Cave Freeze Up…...No Water.

[pushbutton]

Well, almost made it through this cold front, hanging out at the man cave right now, and just realized I have no water. Don't really know how long, but know I ran the water last night and took a dump here this morning and flushed. It has a small pressure tank, suppose it could have been longer than a day, could be the well, could be something electrical with the pressure tank, but thinking it is the incoming line. A breaker is not tripped to the well nor a fuse to the tank. Soooo…..how to proceed from here? Running a space heater in the bathroom right now, where the supply line is, but the incoming line is the black sprinkler type a foot or so from the foundation and suspect that it will not penetrate deep enough to unthaw. Have not had a problem in almost twenty years since I have owned it, but have not had this prolonged of cold snap either.

[hawgchaser]

I don't know how comfortable you are with electricity, but the first thing I'd do is to check and make sure the pump is working by manually pushing the contact points (in the pump switch box) together with an INSULATED screwdriver or a piece of rigid plastic. (Make sure the scewdriver is not touching any metal but the contact or you will short the circuit and maybe even "weld" the screw driver to other parts of the switch). Safer bet would be to have an plumber or electrician do this. I've worked a lot with electricity and know what I'm doing, but don't want have anyone get hurt. When in doubt, leave it alone.

If the pump kicks in, I'd then look for "likely" places where the water line is close to the cold. I once had a line freeze because the dryer vent tube was in contact with the water line and the vent flap outside was stuck open. Next would be to put some heat on the coldest spot(s) on the lines(have a valve open)...next to exterior walls; where the line comes in from the well, etc. Warm wet cloth, heat tape, even pouring hot water over freeze areas all could do the trick. If you can't get it thawed, make sure to kill the current to the pump as it will eventually thaw and a ruptured spot where it froze could make a mess. Good Luck!

[Cheers]

when playing around with frozen water lines the first rule is throw the breaker on your hot water tank before you forget about it an end up draining it

[hawgchaser]

If you have other valves that flow, you don't need to fool with the switch box. Drain enough water to hear the switch click shut and you'll know if the pump works.

[Tom7227]

Seems to me that a bit more info is needed before a lot of advice can be useful.

Is the garage/building attached to the house or or not?

Does it have a well of it's own or run off the house?

If it runs off the house do you have a valve in the line in the house that you can turn off?

If the building isn't attached maybe the frozen section is actually someplace outside in the run from the house.

If it has a separate well(not likely) then the possibility of a pump problem seems something to consider. If it doesn't have its own pump and the water system in the house works then the pump issue seems to me to be off base.

If the lines run from the house and you don't have a shut off I would give some thought to trying to install one pretty quickly. If you can get valves installed then you can isolate the building but still have water in the house and also minimize the risk of flooding in the building.

[hawgchaser]

Good points, Tom. I presumed from the "small pressure tank" that the man cave used an independent water source from the house. Such may not be the case as "constant pressure" tanks are dainty little things.

[pushbutton]

Its a separate entity with its own well. It is probably 75 ft from the man cave shack.Had a volt meter hooked up and it read 4 amps and the fuses were almost hot last night when I started digging into it a little…somewhat telling my limited knowledge... the well is ….well at least was functional. The small pressure tank has no pressure anymore. The supply line is a 1 inch black plastic…think it is sprinkler line. Trying to get at it right now, but can't find a torch to soften it to get the internal plumbing hookup out….always one thing after another. After getting access was thinking of running something like wire or one of those "electrician thingies to get down the wall" to see if there is a blockage….hopefully close to the house. Would think where that pipe comes through the frost line on up would be the most vulnerable point. Might be putting the cart before the horse and prematurely diagnosing the wrong problem , but what am wondering is there a "jimmy rig" steam set up or a way to cycle hot water in and out of a small plastic line without making a huge mess in the house….

[hawgchaser]

I'm not understanding what is 75 feet from the man cave...the well or the pressure tank & pump. If the fuses are hot and no pressure, the problem is likely in the supply line preceding the tank as the pump is calling for water which never makes it to the pressure tank. Is the pump above ground or a submersible. What would you be pouring water on in the house that would make a mess? I think we need to know where the tank and supply water line leading to the pressure tank are...house, (outside)well house, or man cave.

[pushbutton]

The well is 75 ft from the house. Deep submersible pump in a pit underneath the frost line. The controls and pressure tank are inside the man cave…..in the same area where in supply line comes in. Also am assuming there is blockage where the line comes into the house and assume i need to somehow get hot water or steam down the intake line….would like to do this without making a huge watery mess.

[pushbutton]

So far my plan is to maybe somehow use a small pump and small flexible tube to get the cold water out after I pour hot water in, or if there is a way to recycle water in and out….or a maybe a way to get steam down without melting the plastic intake pipe that I currently can't get to…. because I am getting too old and fat to squeeze in the tight space

[hawgchaser]

Okay! If the water line supplying the tank is inside and (presumably) surrounded by a casing (usually 3 or 4 inch PVC or black flexible pipe) you can probably pour water slowly over the pipe going into the ground and it will seep into the ground. A more permanent solution would be to buy a heating cable - the orange ones- attach the end to the supply line loosely with a zip tie, and wrap the supply line around the pipe like it shows on the box while you use a stick or something to push the end into the casing. Wrap the heat tape fairly loosely so the wrapped heat tape will slide on the line. Get a long enough heat tape so that you can tape or zip tie the heat tape to the underside of the exposed supply line all the way to where it junctions into the pressure tank. In the event there is no casing and the supply line is surrounded by concrete coming into the man cave, you could use a space heater and fan to direct the heat to the wall entrance and use a heat gun or hair dryer to warm the exposed line leading to your tank.

The pros have steam tubes, but that could get costly. Hope this helps. Your dilemma is a deja vu flashback to my "farm kid" youth.

[pushbutton]

Yeah, hard for others to visualize the situation. The man cave was built by hippies using under the influence advanced fort building techniques……. nothing a plumber would do. The supply line coming in is simply a 1 inch black plastic sprinkler pipe coming up from under the ground a foot or so from the outside wall, through the floor. It is sticking out of the floor inside the bathroom about 8 inches, and will have access to the opening….as soon as I can the house connection lines out. Yep, would not like to pay a pretty penny for someone to steam it out and trying to come up with a way to do it myself.

[hawgchaser]

Did the DIY installers heat the man cave? If not, they may not have put the lines far enough below frost line and just drained the line in the fall. If that's the case, I'd shut the pump off and do the bucket flush method until you can correct their craftsmanship. Been there...done that. You might take a snowblower and blow snow over the line from well to man cave. Eventually the ground's thermal heat should thaw the line if it's insulated enough from the cold outside air.

[pushbutton]

Good new is I figured more out, got a tape down the intake line, bad news is made it out to 12 ft. and it stopped. Frost must be really deep this year and the line is froze for potentially 50 ft or so. Have never had issues in close to 20 years. So if I am able to clear it, will it just refreeze? Would adding snow right now be able to drive the frost line up?

[Tom7227]

I have to bet that the hippies didn't dig it in far enough, most likely would need to be 42+ inches this year and that's a lot of digging for those hard working folks. My guess is that you're SOL this year and will have to go to the house to do your business.

[hawgchaser]

Snow is a good insulator. I blow a 10ft. wide berm of snow over my septic line from house to septic tank just to insure against freeze-up. Doing so after the fact should help but it probably won't be overnight...more like a week or so. Better to do it before the warm up as light fluffy snow insulates better than the heavy stuff. Most water lines in my area are 6ft. down. I make sure the ones I've put in are 7ft. I've known DIYers who've used a ditch-witch. They'll get by most years. The extended cold this year could well bring any such "sins" to light. I doubt your line is 6ft. down or the snow we've had this year should have prevented freeze-up. If you drive vehicles over where you've found the freeze spot, that could pack the ground which drives the frost deeper.

[pushbutton]

Yeah, since I have never had problems, and we have had a decent amount of snow am a little surprised that it froze where it did. Oh well, guess I will have to wait 3 months to get my throne back. Still might try to thaw it out, but just got thinking to keep it open might run too much water through the septic and then tax that, ultimately defeating my ultimate goal Thanks guys!

[delcecchi]

Isn't the classical solution to put a whole bunch of insulation, like hay or foam or fiberglass batts over the ground and wait for it to thaw? Snow helps too. If you have enough insulation it will thaw all the way to the surface.

[randerson]

We have had this problem at work about 5 years ago at the end of January we had no water one day and found out the line froze so we hooked up a welder to the copper pipe on each end we had access to and thawed it that way it took about 8 hours than we didn't have a problem than after a few years it happened again since than we have put a small line that runs at a trickle to keep the water flowing and it has worked great these last couple of years its tough living in the Arctic Cold of MN

[3pronghook]

is well above ground? if so you will hear the pump running, or humming. hopefully you shut the pump breaker off? if not your pump is deadheading, overheating, kicking out the thermal overloads and will continue doing this until the motor burns out. you could have the line steamed free then have an autodrain valve installed into the pump pipe which is in the well. wont always work if done by do it your selfers. or have check valve removed from puno and installed at tank so you can drain it each time you leave. they also make heat tape that goes inside a waterline but it is expensive.

[pushbutton]

Think/hope I got the pump shut off in time. Took the snow insulation suggestion and heaped up some up. Talked to two local well companies and they are not using steam, so figured I could make my own contraption pretty similar to what I assume they are using and charging a hundo an hour for. Have a sump pump reduced down to a 1/4 inch flexible tubing. In a few days or so am going to heat some snow up on the stove to boiling and feed the line down and see what happens. Have read about the welder thingy, but do not think my plastic line would fair to well Speaking of melting snow down for water, have been filling 3 five gallon buckets at night and by morning have enough water to flush. Where there is a will….and no well…. there still is a way

[hawgchaser]

For some of us older dudes, we remember when the bucket WAS the toilet!! (during winter nights) Still can't stand the smell of Pine sol; that was our deodorizer

Glad you're adapting, thinking, and keeping your sense of humor.

[Tom7227]

This is in today's Strib. Curious to know whether any pro thinks the explanation about why pipe's burst makes sense.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/homegarden/240162101.html?page=2&c=y

[3pronghook]

12 feet before a blockage could be an elbow? is tank location on an outside wall? have you checked area at well? I know in extreme cold winters wells can freeze at the pitless. the well casing can act as conduit for cold and wind whips down there and even with a lot of snow the discharge were the pump pipe in the well connecting to the waterline to the man cave could be froze? using hot water to thaw ice from inside the waterline is long shot. if you want to remove the water just use smaller pipe and pull it our by thumbing the high open end and pull out water. if you shut pump off within a few days of running without pumping you should be good. which bring up another question have you checked to make sure it isn't just the pump? PM me not sure where your at but I do know a guy from brainerd that does pump work fairly reasonable and I think he has a little homemade steamer too.

[pushbutton]

Could be wrong, but do not think there is an elbow…it pretty much a straight run. Also do not think it was the well when i shut it off. Had an amperage reading and the points on the fuses were hot, so thinking it was functioning and just recycling. First thought was just dumping hot water, but yeah, seemed kind of like peeing uphill in the wind. My new plan…ANYONE CHIME IN AND TELL ME WHY IT WON'T WORK,…..is too put a smaller sump pump in a 5 gallon bucket or the tub with small tubing and actively pushing water on the blockage with that small tubing. The water will be coming in deep inside the waterline and the overflow will just come out into the bucket or tub only to be recycled back in. And thanks, if I can not pull this off myself will look at having someone come out.