Important Reading Item

[Ferny]

Surface Tension, That sounds pretty lame ripping on someone for hunting the same trail! Is it your land (OK) or public land (Not OK)? Seeing other hunters is pretty normal in the Rush City to Sandstone public trails. Most of the trailheads head off in multiple directions so it's the luck of the draw if you see someone. Here's another tip...get off the trail once in awhile.

I've seen it happen with an ATV driving by on a logging roads and grouse just sitting still until flushed by me walking 30 seconds later. So it does happen, just like loud hunters dragging their boots miss birds.

Later,

Ferny.

[Guest]

Spike,

My presentation was slightly absurd to make a point. No, I don't immediately fear my outdoor activities are in jeporady if ATV use is restricted. My concern is in letting the MRR or other anti-fun organizations being the party that dictates the changes. Trust me, if they get grab a little power, they will find a way to restrict the use of fillet knives. Fish have feelings too (you know the argument).

Surface Tension,

"Boneiface"? Are you ripping me, dude? Or was that a typo?

[Surface Tension]

Ferny when theres 1 trail no feeders trails with a car parked in front of it why would you stop and hunt that trail? Is this what the new breed of hunters do? Is this what you were tought? Why would you want to hunt a trail knowing someone is on it? I can understand a rookie making a dumb decision like that but I hope you older hunters know better. Dont tell me that I should bust the bushes so the ATV's can run the trail.
You guys are flushing birds on ATV's and you dont even know it. So please stop with the they just duck when you drive by is BS.

Bornofice, Yes its a typo sorry.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 03-06-2002).]

[Guest]

Tension,

I think, I know for a fact, grouse are drawn to the hums of ATVs not fly away from it. You should give that a try. Just let an ATV idle on one of your favorite hunting trail and wait. You will sooner or later get grouse coming in. Oh, by the way this method leads to a hefty fine.

If they do flush, you should keep you eye on them because they usually land within 30 yards from the place of being flushed. Unfortunately, if the ATV rider should also happens to be a hunter, riding to his favorite spots on the trail, you don't have a chance of going after that bird.

Not all grouse will flush at the sound of an ATV. Heck, not all creatures of the woods will run away from the noise of a motor but they will move away from the noise produced by green-horns on the trails or in the woods.

[Surface Tension]

Bassmaster, Last year on a hunt I was 2 miles down a trail. I had 2 wheelers (father and son) with shotguns pass me up. I stoped for a while to let the woods calm down. One mile more down the trail them came from behind and passed me up. Went another mile and they passed me agian. I turned around to go back and this same crap happened a few more times. Acording to you the hum from these guys going up and down the trail should have atracted quit a few birds!
Im 44, been hunting grouse since I was 14. Dont insult me by telling me ATV's attract wildlife.

[SpikeRoberts]

There is some extremely interestigng reading about the 'wise-use' movement on the HSOforum of the MJ McCabe Chapter of the Issak Walton League, including several articles by noted outdoors person Tony Dean.

In "National Parks" magazine, writer Richard Stapleton identifies the sponsors of the extremist Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise's Wise-Use Movement Conferences. Among the the contributors are the American Motorcycle Association (which lists all major manufacturers of ATVs as members) and the United 4-Wheel Drive Association which also lists a number of ATV industry mainstays as members.

[SpikeRoberts]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I don't believe that the majority of ATV users have any connection to or affintiy with these extremists. Just as many people concerned about the current ATV regulations have no connection with the PETA crowd or other environmental extremists.
I just wanted to make the point that if you want to get into the guilt by association/slippery slope it can pretty easily go both ways.

[Ely Lake Expert]

As far as the hum of the atv attracting birds, I don't know. But I do know it definately doesn't scare them. If I see a grouse sitting on the trail I leave the wheeler running and they stay put. If I turn it off that is what flushes them.

Ely lake expert

[Dave]

Spike, who's playing this guilt by association game?

I don't have any problems with any of Surface Tensions comments. But when someone says they'll chew out someone cause they're hunting/walking on the same trail, that sounds a little ridicules to me.

"To me, playing the exteremist card only shows that there isn't any real merit to your support of unrestricted ATV use."

If that's directed to me, I don't support unrestricted ATV use. Looking at the reg book, I see many restrictions already.

[SpikeRoberts]

Dave,
My posts are not directed at you or Surface but rather were in response to Bornofice's (admittedly hyperbolic) post warning that if we don't stick up for ATVs then we're eventually going to have our filet knives taken away. When I questioned the use of this tactic by drawing an example going the other direction, Bornofice asked for some documentation - so I provided some. I trust that you, Bornofice, and others are responsible riders and don't cause the types of problems I'm trying to address.
The only thing I've been trying to say here is that the current situation is unacceptable, I think ATV use is a valuable recreational activity but it needs to be reigned in a bit. When I ask what the OHV community proposes to do about repairing past damage and preventing future destruction, I see responses varying from "there is nothing wrong, this is just another conspiracy by the anti-fun crowd" to "there's a problem but, oh well, there's bad apples in every crowd," to "there aren't enough funds for enforcement AND trail development, so let's build trails and and take our risks with the irresponsible users." I've taken the time to survey many of the ATV Clubs websites and I see the same platitudes. In each of these cases there is more emphasis on preserving access to the forests than protecting the forests -- that ultimately is the problem I'm having with this whole issue. What are ATVers doing to restore and protect the the forests, what are they doing to ensure that grouse hunters like Surface Tension can enjoy their outdoor activities in a manner consistent with the way they've done it for decades? I asked this question more than a week ago and no one has yet offered any tangible evidence that they are doing anything.
The answer cannot be placed in the DNR's hands, they are already stretched to capacity with their duties and the various political pressures placed on them. The answer, like it has from so many other sportspeople in so many other activities, has to come from the responsible users who will have to clearly demonstrate that they CAN and WILL do something about the current problems.

[This message has been edited by SpikeRoberts (edited 03-06-2002).]

[Dave]

Spike, I understand. I flipped back a few pages and noted you're the one that's close to Spider Lake. I don't think anyone is arguing about that specific area being overused/over crowded (whatever you want to call it)

When YOU think about more ATV restrictions, are you thinking about the end result for statewide ATV use or just your area? (I'm just throwing out something here, don't get riled...LOL). I'd guess it's more emotionally about your area. I ride in many states besides MN. I do not live near any ride area, like it seems you do. I am not emotionally tied to an area. I also can't hunt out my back door. Like it seems Surface Tension can (by being familiar with the vehicles parked at the trailhead.)

Do you think the current situation is unacceptable in YOUR area only or across the state? Have you rode areas across the state?

One quote you just made about some of the solutions you hear is " "there aren't enough funds for enforcement AND trail development, so let's build trails and and take our risks with the irresponsible users."

I believe I said something like that first part but never to "'take our risks......."

What do you want an ATVer, like me, to tell you on this forum? That I'd go out and nab riders off their machines and give them a lecture? I can't give them a ticket. I can't do any more than you can do to a speeder or drunk driver on the freeway. And, is that a big problem, yes.

I have trouble understanding you on the "protecting the forest" issue. Even if 10 riders rode very slowly, there's going to be some rearrangement of the earth. Now, my problem is, what is acceptable to people like you? ATVers been hearing damage, damage, damage but, I think we'll hear that even about the Gilbert riding area once it opens.
If designated trails through the forest is rutted, is that OK with you?

I don't truely believe people like Surface Tension have a problem with just ATVs; not if that person will chew out a walker also. I've never heard someone say that. Maybe if they set up a tree stand 10 yards from yours but never walking through the woods.

I am inconvenienced many times in daily life. Some will have to put up with slob hunters, slob fisherpeople, littering people. You don't like that I assume. What are YOU doing about it?

I think the DNR will come in with a firmer foot. And, if you're looking for an answer right now, from us in here, you're not going to get one. The riding season hasn't started yet. I can't go to ever registered owner's door and talk to them. We'll have to wait to do that on the trails. If you don't think the ATV crowd is planning some "fixes", you're mistaken.

[SpikeRoberts]

Dave,

You've made a fair point about my personal involvement with one of the most heavily used areas in the state (Spider lake)-- perhaps it is not that bad elsewhere, but I suspect there are still notable problems. If other areas are as bad as Spider Lake, then we've got some very serious problems.

"What do you want an ATVer, like me, to tell you on this forum? That I'd go out and nab riders off their machines and give them a lecture?"

Well, frankly, that would be a nice start, I've done it myself a few times and have nearly ended up in fisticufs. Perhaps if such scoldings came from other users they would be taken more seriously.

What I would be more impressed by would be habitat rehabilitation projects -- planting trees, restoring vegetation, etc... (not just building trails) It would be an awfully convincing gesture on the part of the ATV community of they could show that they're are committed to such projects in the long-term, especially if they were being done proactively rather than reactively.

Finally, it would be refreshing to see ATVers propose some limitations of their own regarding trail use during hunting seasons and in other times/places when riding might conflict with others' enjoyment. Doing so might convince me that ATVs really do care about multiple-use and that they respect others' uses as well.

"Now, my problem is, what is acceptable [damage] to people like you?"

I understand that riding on trails will compact the trails and even impact the trail-side some. I'm OK with that. It's the off-trail baha stuff through swamps and in and out of lakes that destroys important riparian vegetation that I'm most concerned about. Compaction of soil and ripping up soil exposing it to erosion [off the trails] are problems too. As I understand it, you have major problems with this as well. And as I said, maybe this isn't a problem everywhere but it certainly is in the area I am familiar with.

"Some will have to put up with slob hunters, slob fisherpeople, littering people. You don't like that I assume. What are YOU doing about it?"

Well, that too is a fair question although the activities I participate in don't have the potential for nor the history of damage (see above for definition of damage) as the ATVs do. I regularly bring extra trash bags w/ ice fishing and pick-up others trash. Because ice-fishing is a pretty social activity, I make time to talk w/ fellow anglers when I go out and, in the course of conversation, drop a few subtle reminders about "slob like behavior." In situations where I couldn't do anything, I've called the TIPS line to report illegal activity.

When I take my kids to the beach at Spider Lake we also take trash bags and pick up after the ATV folks -- I'll bet I've plucked 5000 cigarette butts off that beach and there is always more when i come back the next time.

"If you don't think the ATV crowd is planning some "fixes", you're mistaken."

Don't be so vague --- the "fixes" the ATV crowd are planning are exactly I've been asking about !! Educate me!

Dave, I don't think we're really that far apart on this topic at least concerning the way we believe things should be. It appears we do have some differences in perception about the way things are and the ways things are going, however. Maybe if you saw Spider Lake and if I saw some of the fixes you referred to we'd be closer there too.

[This message has been edited by SpikeRoberts (edited 03-06-2002).]

[Surface Tension]

Let me make myself clear. You keep talking of me chewing someone out for walking the same trail as me. Quote me but dont change words to make me sound like a nut!
I said if Im hunting a trail and an other hunter was a come from behind and pass me up I would chew him out.
If you think thats its acceptable to come from behind a hunter and pass him up you are well beyond any fricking logical train of thought.

Spike, I totally agree with your last post. Its clear we need the DNR to step in.

[Dave]

When we're talking, it'd be nice to conclude/distinguish also that the Spider Lake area is an area for trucks (mudder trucks is the definition I hear so often. I know what they are, I was young once and had one ) The photos in the paper of those large depressions, I think it was unfair to use photos that were not totally created by ATVs and label them as such. This does play a logical part in what should be open to ATVs.

"That I'd go out and nab riders off their machines and give them a lecture?"
My statement above was more of a pun along the lines of "clothes-lining" them off their machines. Maybe they'd get the hint.

We've scolded many riders. The Red Top trail areas were blocked with pallets and/or yellow tape. On return visits, I didn't see any sign of "tresspass" riders.

"What I would be more impressed by would be habitat rehabilitation projects -- planting trees, restoring vegetation, etc... (not just building trails)"

Fair statement/solution. Something someone may not have thought about. I know I haven't. I'm not sure where you'd expect this type of projects to be done thou. In a forest or ditch or? After a trail is built in the forest, should trees be planted somewhere else? I'd also see - at this time - a problem of, and I'll just call it, funding funneling (I know,I know). Since nobody probably has approached this type of solution before, an account would have to be setup for this purpose. Good point, good input to a solution.

"Finally, it would be refreshing to see ATVers propose some limitations of their own regarding trail use during hunting seasons and in other times/places when riding might conflcit with others' enjoyment."

I see this as a bag of worms, kind of. During hunting times, as I tried to disuss with Surface Tension. The state forests I've been frquenting for over 20 years and hunt have always had a heavy dose of machines around. Crowded areas.
Deer hunting has restricted riding hours. Can we restrict the hours for a nonhunter? I also think of this along the lines of restricting all boating during certain hours on lakes for those that want to canoe. I don't know how that COULD work. I'm not saying it could not. I just don't know how. Morning, afternoon, evening restricted hours???
This brings me back to the amount of land that is available. If I set up my deer stand and find another there in the morning. I don't confront, I move. That deer isn't the most important thing during my hunt, I guess.

Surface Tension....here's your words.

"Get ATV's off the trails during small game season and I with alot of other sportmen will join your fight."

In another post you state that the 11-2pm restriction during small game season would be ok. That's A LOT different than "Get ATVs off the trails during small game season"

Trails are open from April-November. Get them off also during small game season - which is how long? That doesn't sound rational to me.

"Would I dam someone out if they were to walk past me, by all means."

Do you happen to fish also? Is that how you handle someone who comes up and ice fishes or anchors by you? I've had lures hit my boat. I shake my head at the other boat and move on.

My fingers are sore......

[Benny]

Well, I had a whole page of bashing I was going to post but errased it.
Surface tension, are you here to give some ideas on how we all can use the forest and not step on anyones toes or are you here just to voice your opinion and then bash anyone who dosn't agree?
Spike,Dave and Bornoice all have tried to come up with some answers to what some people veiw as a problem.All I have read from you is how up set you are that two idiots ran past you on ATV's, or how you would chew some other fellow hunter out for walking faster than you on public land.
I can't believe that, for the most part, people in our hunting, fishing, and outdoor recreation world can't see how un productive it is to point the finger at the other side and say they are the ones causing all our problems.Man, didn't the attack on our rights to even carry a shotgun in the woods wake anyone up to the fact that we are all headed for the same ban this ban that ending.We need to work together and find a solution, maybe we should have areas for the foot hunters and areas for the ATV riders.But if one gets baned the other will surely follow as all the ATV folks will be out to ban hunting as payback.Atv parks have worked in other states, Montana has miles of trails open in the mountains for OHV travel.So does Idaho, California, New Mexico, Arizona just to name a few out west.They all had the same problems with the bad apple crowd, but they found a way to deal with them.If you get cuaght in an offlimits area in Montana you loose your rig, and pay a hefty fine.Who among these dead beat slob riders or hunters for that mater wants to loose a $6500. Polaris and pay upward of $3000. fine just to get a little mud on them?I bet not many !
Lets keep the good productive arguments going and forget about the negative ones.
Benny

[Dave]

Benny, there ARE areas for walking only, they just aren't in peoples backyards like they're use to having, I think.

Spike, since you're from the Spider area, is that a safe comment for me to say? I'll agree, it's probably more crowded nowadays.

Any idea what's the view about this situation from area businesses?

[Surface Tension]

Dave the 11 to 2 pm time limit has worked for during deer season. I think it should be adopted for Small Game season also. Since Small Game season is 3 months long maybe extend the riding hours after Oct.30th except Deer season would be the same 11 to 2.


Benny I deleted about 6 posts. Who's getting bashed here besides me? I didnt call anyone an idiot you did.
About ATV parks. Why not use some of the unclaimed mines or tailing dumps for parks. You can tear a$$ around all you want and who's going to complian.

And Im still stickin with pass me,chew you.

[Dave]

Listen, Surface Tension, what do you think most of us are, spring chickens? Some of us have been around the block a time or two as well and have REAL experiences to share. I'm not going to waste my time in having a discussion/debate if you're just going to come in here and basically call everyone an one-who-thinks-I-am-silly on their views. This Forum is too good for that.

If your idea of hunting is just staying on a trail, well, more power to ya.

[SpikeRoberts]

If you want to play the guilt by association game, how about the connections the OHV industry has to the wise-use extremists. These folks believe that state and federal governments have no right to own forests and/or recreational land. My fear is that letting the so-called "wise-use" movement set the terms of this or any other debate is that they will eventually find a way to sell off all public lands to the highest bidder. Free-market enterprise is the answer to every social relationship (you know the argument).

Equally as absurd as the PETA folks, dude! To me, playing the exteremist card only shows that there isn't any real merit to your support of unrestricted ATV use.

[Guest]

Spike,

I certainly don't support unrestricted ATV use (except on your own property). In fact, I think Dave is right. ATVs ought not be able to baha through the forest. Give ATVers some direction on where they can and shouldn't ride.

OK, Spike. Where can I find documentation that ATV manufacturers have the "wise-use" crowd in their corner? I'm not particularily fond of that group either.

[Surface Tension]

If I thought I was going to come here and make a point of how we need resricted use for ATV's and have you welcome it with open arm's I'd be a fool. When I tell you the complaints of hunters with ATV's dont tell me it isnt a big deal. When it comes to ethics in the field some people have more then others. Im not going to defend myself or try and get my point across any more on this subject. I hope it wasnt a total waste of time. Good Luck to all.

[Ybone]

Surface Tension has a legitimate complaint. Grouse hunters on foot do not like being passed by ATVs especially if the guy on the ATV is hunting from it. I once had an ATV come from behind me. He stopped and talked and I thought he would take one of the trails he just passed. Instead he zoomed ahead about 100 yards or less and slowed down to walking speed so I could see and hear him all the way out of the woods to where my truck was parked. The idea of another hunter on foot passing you is ridiculous and almost comical if it did happen. You would have to be moving painfully slow and he would have to be walking like an old time movie in order to catch you and pass you. Of course you're going to meet another hunter coming from the opposite direction now and then but no ones going to get upset by that. It's illegal to shoot a grouse within 60 feet of an ATV plus the engine must be shut off. I wonder how often that law is obeyed. Hunting grouse from an ATV really isn't hunting anyway, you might as well just butcher a bunch of chickens.

What's the solution? Grouse hunters like nonmotorized trails but we need more of them. Perhaps some could be nonmotorized during hunting seaon only. One of the articles in the Trib quoted a guy from Polaris as saying ATVs only use 1% of the state forest land. That doesn't sound like much til you do the math. If you had a 10 foot wide ATV trail every 1000 feet that would be 1%. So theoretically you would always be within 500 feet of an ATV trail. Of course some trails are not much wider than an ATV so that would make them even closer together.

I do own an ATV and use it the way the Polaris guy says most people use them. For work, ice fishing and to access hunting land. I have no desire to tear up public land and do not like what's happening at Spider Lake. I know some of the people who were quoted and pictured in the Trib articles and believe me they are not environmental radicals or Greens as you call them. Just people who live near the area. Some of them even own ATVs so they are not anti ATV. Whoever mentioned it [Dave I believe] is right all the damage was not caused by ATVs but by 4 wheel drive trucks and jeeps too.

[This message has been edited by Ybone (edited 03-07-2002).]

[SpikeRoberts]

Dave wrote: "there ARE areas for walking only, they just aren't in peoples backyards like they're use to having, I think.Spike, since you're from the Spider area, is that a safe comment for me to say? I'll agree, it's probably more crowded nowadays."

Yes, that's fair to say. We have been pretty spoiled w/ the Spider Lake Rec Area and the Foothills State Forest within a few miles of our farm (BTW I live in the Cities, the farm land is recreational although we do rent 57 acres out to a neighboring cattle rancher). There is a designated x-country ski & horse trail in the nearby Foothills State Forest and there is less traffic in the Foothills than in the Spider Lake Rec Area -- that is beginning to change though as riders get sick of the crowds at Spider and have turned their attention to the Foothills -- this is one of my concerns about the current situation. Its bad enough that Spider has seen its troubles but it appears to be spreading and the way the law is written, no one can do anything about it. Like I said before, I think that riding has some recreational value and I am not opposed to the Spider Lake Trails altogether (although it would be nice to have things the way they used to be -- but I realize that's pretty idealistic), I just want to see them limited to certain areas and limited in the amount of damage they do.

"Any idea what's the view about this situation from area businesses?"

I can't comment on that too much other than to say I know that there is a farmer/rancher (he's a businessman?) that raises elk on land adjacent to Spider Lake who is at his wits end trying to keep riders off his land. Other than that, the nearest towns are Motley (30 miles south), Backus (10 miles north), and Pine River (15 miles to the east) (****, did I just give directions to more yahoos that want to ride this area --doh!) My guess is that these towns don't see any major economic impact from the ATVers because most drive up from the Cities and camp out in the Spider Lake Rec Area for the whole weekend, maybe stopping for gas on their way through but not shopping or anything.

As for funding rehabilitation projects, I was thinking in lines of projects like those of Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, Hides for Habitat, Trout Unlimited -- all member supported organizations that make projects work without state funding even though they are often done with state cooperation.

[This message has been edited by SpikeRoberts (edited 03-07-2002).]

[Dave]

Spike, you hit a key word in your post, crowds. ATVs got to spread out, but how. I still think if more designated trails are "highlighted" and give ATVers the "challenge", riders would spread out to those areas in the state and help your area "thin out".
You'll have to admit, the "north country" is the attraction for anyone in MN, whether fishing, camping, hiking or riding. The southern central part is suburbanized quite a bit and the south is mostly farmland.

I'm not familiar with the rehabilitaion projects from groups you mentioned. It's well worth the effort to check it out thou.

As far as businesses go, the ones around the Red Top area are in much better shape than they were before.

FYI....I own some land one mile away from the Red Top trail area, and live in the cities. So, I know what it's like to own land by a recreational site also. I'm still amazed at the amount of deer hunters that show up during deer season thou. Blaze orange woods....LOL

Thanks for the info...it helps.

[Guest]

Basshunter and Surface Tension,

I deleted your posts because neither of them really contributed to the topic at hand. If you need to go at it, exchange emails and torch each other there. I'm not trying to be a dictator, just making sure this doesn't get too personal.

I've got to say this thread has been one of the most interesting ones I've ever read on FishingMinnesota.com. There's been some good points made, and we've had a wide variety of perspectives (an ATV insider, a landowner that views an OHV park in-action regularly, a hunter that perceives ATVs as a detriment, and so on). It's been very educational to say the least.

It's been exceptionally educational for me. I've only owned an ATV for a little over a year. I use it primarily for ice fishing transportation. And, it's become almost as essential as an FL-8 or an auger. I also use it for some light utility work and occasionally just pleasure riding. I've yet to utilize an OHV park, but definitely will this summer.

With that being said, it's fairly obvious that I cannot offer opinions based in fact about environmental impact relative to ATV public land use. But, good sense tells me if people stay on the trail impact can be minimal. I am very concerned with what I view as "anti-fun" propaganda being published by the regional media outlets. My concern, however, isn't that this stuff is in print; it's a free country, they have every right to print it. My concern is the lack of a reply to these articles. Why hasn't the ATV industry been more swift with a response? I'm all for a calculated response, but the lack of immediate retort allows momentum to build in the "anties" favor. I suppose it's easy for me to sit here and play arm-chair speculator, but it's got to be in Polaris's and Artic Cat's best interest to get involved.

Also, I know some of my previous statements have bordered on the absurd, but any hit to an outdoor pastime will start a ripple that is of great concern to me. The "anti" groups are very well organized, and they'll take an inch and turn it into a mile if there is no organized opposition. Groups like the MRR are going to get backing from other higher, better funded "anti" groups that want an in here in Minnesota. If you don't think the MRR doesn't want to get more than ATVs, take a look at their HSOforum (http://www.cpinternet.com/~mrr/index.htm). If it's up to them, you'll be rowing your boat to your favorite fishing hole. You can tell me I'm really stretching here if you want, but really, read their HSOforum. If you don't come to similar conclusions, you're kidding yourself.

A couple other things occurred to me during this debate.

1) ATVers need a leader, a figurehead. We need a Charlton Heston type that can represent us with level headed guidance. We need a high profile leader.

2) If there's such a high demand for ATV use opportunities, why aren't there more private outlets? I know people would pay money to ride. I suppose liability issues might deter entrepreneurship in that circle.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed thus far. It's been very educational.