BWCA mining?

[Sota2Florida]

Timber, maybe I am still an optimist but I believe if we don't live by emotion businesses can make safe and logical business decisions. Business is not evil.

Agree with the posts on the pits and I will add Whitewater/Colby Lake and the St Louis River as terrible "byproducts" of the mines. [PoorWordUsage]? They have the best fishing up here. Not one of the very large Walleye, Northern, Bass or Crappie I have caught from those lakes have had 3 eyes or legs.

I would hate to see any of the lakes or my hunting land destroyed but I believe the mines can continue to operate and support the area. With common sense regulations.

[Down Deep]

Iron mining and taconite processing were not without their own problems. I remind you about Reserve Mining dumping their effluent for 25 years which was full of asbestos like fibers. They didn't stop until the EPA told them they had to. All along Reserve maintained that refuse was safe and the town of Silver Bay was squarely in their corner because of the jobs they provided. Reserve found a solution only when they had to. That is why I maintain that until mines using sulfate processing can demonstrate they can do it without spoiling the wetlands, rivers and lakes around them. If the minerals are worth a billion dollars today they will still be worth the same or more when the sulfates can be handled properly.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/09/29_hemphills_reservehistory/

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I really want to see these mining projects work on so many levels, but not at the expense of the lakes I grew up fishing and swimming in.

I don't think anybody here DOESN'T want them to work. However, until these companies can prove, without a doubt, that they won't completely devestate the surrounding environment, folks like myself really don't want them to test this "new technology" on one of the most unique environments in the lower 48!

Why did Wisconson pass laws banning this form of mining? Why are there dead zones in the areas where this mining took place in the past? Why do some feel this won't be the same fate for MN in one of the most unique environments in the states?

I understand the necessity for these jobs up here, but will the boom be worth it when the end result will lead to devestation of what Dtro even says sustains the local economies? If the rivers flow orange, not a lot of tourists will spend their vacation time in the Ely area anymore.

[Zelmsdawg]

I don't think anybody here DOESN'T want them to work. However, until these companies can prove, without a doubt, that they won't completely devestate the surrounding environment, folks like myself really don't want them to test this "new technology" on one of the most unique environments in the lower 48!

Why did Wisconson pass laws banning this form of mining? Why are there dead zones in the areas where this mining took place in the past? Why do some feel this won't be the same fate for MN in one of the most unique environments in the states?

I understand the necessity for these jobs up here, but will the boom be worth it when the end result will lead to devestation of what Dtro even says sustains the local economies? If the rivers flow orange, not a lot of tourists will spend their vacation time in the Ely area anymore.

I know I'm not like others in that I think about long term before I consider short, but after picking someone up at the airport and seeing the MN welcome sign, I personally like being from a state where the state image is one of woods and water.

And as far an MN having strict environment laws, those seem to be headed in the other direction

http://minnesotaindependent.com/78498/dayton-signs-gops-environmental-petition-reform-into-law

And thanks tom for posting those interesting articles

[Tom7227]

http://minnesotaindependent.com/78498/dayton-signs-gops-environmental-petition-reform-into-law

I forgot about that one. That one is particularly insidious. I believe it requires issuance of a permit within X days of the application being filed. I think X is 180. That seems reasonable doesn't it? Well here's the kicker. Existing law requires issuance within a given time frame but the clock doesn't start to run until the company files a completed application. I know for a fact that the Polymet application has been rejected a number of times because it has been woefully incomplete. An example of their record in that regard is the rejection by the EPA of their environmental impact statement.

Another factor in the debate is the elimination of staff at the Board of Water and Soil and the PCA. Their budgets have been cut fairly significantly over the past few years and they are too the point where there aren't enough ants to get things done.

IMO the Legislature has done a lot to clear the way for these mining companies and again in my opinion the steps that have been taken do not do much to make me feel comfortable that we're going to end up with safe operations based on good science.

As for those who say the mines are needed to provide jobs - those claims have been made for decades. The economies of NE Minn have gone up and down time and again. I'm sorry that has happened. But I simply cannot see why the types of results that history has shown result when copper and other sulfide mining takes place is a result that has to be accepted.

[James_R]

[quote=BRULEDRIFTER I don't think anybody here DOESN'T want them to work. However, until these companies can prove, without a doubt, that they won't completely devestate the surrounding environment, folks like myself really don't want them to test this "new technology" on one of the most unique environments in the lower 48!

Companies now have to prove they won't break the law "before" any type of crime is committed? Our civil/criminal justice system was designed to serve justice only after crimes are committed. Why do you think people or corporations are inherently evil and need to prove themselves otherwise? In our litigious society it's in these companies best financial interests to be good neighbors and not destroy the land. If they don't they'll face a multitude of lawsuits and penalties that will eat into their profits. This whole thing seems less and less about the environment and more about going after corporations and their evil profits which by the way provide jobs and investment in economically depressed areas such as the BWCA.

[Timber]

Companies now have to prove they won't break the law "before" any type of crime is committed? Our civil/criminal justice system was designed to serve justice only after crimes are committed. Why do you think people or corporations are inherently evil and need to prove themselves otherwise? In our litigious society it's in these companies best financial interests to be good neighbors and not destroy the land. If they don't they'll face a multitude of lawsuits and penalties that will eat into their profits. This whole thing seems less and less about the environment and more about going after corporations and their evil profits which by the way provide jobs and investment in economically depressed areas such as the BWCA.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Thank you Timber! Enough said!

[James_R]

Apparently English isn't your strongsuit Timber. There was no analogy used in my previous statement. I was only trying to understand Bruledrifters comments. Believe it or not you don't have the right to test drive cars. They offer you that convenience so that you will want to purchase their products on your own free will. In the U.S. people used to be innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. We don't have to prove anything to anyone. The government has to do that after we're brought up on formal charges. I'm glad you guys are comfortable and don't need a mining job up there. Maybe some of those unemployed folks and their families in or near the BWCA can do without and subsist on sulfide free pinecones and rocks while you drag this thing out for the next 20 years.

[Stick in Mud]

Man, this discussion was almost civil for a few posts there.

[OnAFly]

"We don't need a thinker, we need a DO'er, someone that will act without considering the consequences!"

-Homer Simpson

This is the logic I hearing.

[Tom7227]

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/236802/

[Timber]

Apparently English isn't your strongsuit Timber. There was no analogy used in my previous statement. I was only trying to understand Bruledrifters comments. Believe it or not you don't have the right to test drive cars. They offer you that convenience so that you will want to purchase their products on your own free will. In the U.S. people used to be innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. We don't have to prove anything to anyone. The government has to do that after we're brought up on formal charges. I'm glad you guys are comfortable and don't need a mining job up there. Maybe some of those unemployed folks and their families in or near the BWCA can do without and subsist on sulfide free pinecones and rocks while you drag this thing out for the next 20 years.

Your analogy was comparing "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" to a company requesting to mine and meeting the required standards. Not exactly the same thing. Car companies cannot sell a new car unless it meets certain safety standards. What's so different about the mining companies being asked to do the same thing? And I'm not dragging this thing out, Polymet is because they cannot meet required standards. So what's their next move, "streamline the process". What they're really saying is "We can't meet the required standards, so let's change them". What about this new and clean method they have of mining? It doesn't exist. This latest move by Polymet, and legislators, reeks of they can't meet the standards, and they will pollute and cause environmental damage. Jobs at any cost.

[Leaky]

It sounds to me that the bill is to speed up the review process. That is a good thing. From what I understand, they are not relaxing any of the requirements or standards. If the clock says its time to review,Polymet either meets those requirments or not. If they don't, its back to the drawing board until they do.

I really want to see this thing happen, but only by doing the right way.

[Tom7227]

It sounds to me that the bill is to speed up the review process. That is a good thing.

It is only a good thing if there is enough staff to do the review in the allotted time and if a complete detailed filing has been made. Neither is the case in the Polymet instance.

[Leaky]

Yup - and Polymet goes no further until they do. That's a good thing. But I also see what you are saying, that things could slip under the cracks if not properly staffed.

I'm not seeing black helicopters here and would anticipate that the people making the determination aren't just pushing something through. If that were to happen, it would be a sad day indeed and an indictment to our elected officals who allowed it to happen. That goes all the way to the top.

How long do you think it would take today to approve coal plants to supply the country with electricity? Wouldn't happen. Dams for electricity? Forget about it. Theres a group for that. Nuclear? Come on, there's all kinds of groups for that too. Won't even talk aboout the oil sitting in the Alsaka

We as a society need these metals and a safe way to get to them.

[itchmesir]

People's main concern about this whole mining issue is that these mines will give us more jobs.. in a time of need... 1) minnesota is not doing bad at all in these times.. 5.6% unemployment rate.. we're 3% below the national average.. 2) Do you honestly think it's going to create more jobs for minnesotans? How many folks in NoDak believed that would happen with the oil... only to see folks from outside of the state come in and line up for the jobs?

[Leaky]

What do you think the unemployment rate is north of the Mason Dixon line (thats from Hwy 2 north)? You won't find no figures for that. Whats going on in North Dakota is a blessing to anyone willing to go out and work their a** off. Whats wrong with umemployed MN people heading to ND to work rather than sit back and b*tch because there is nothing but min wage jobs at home? If there wasn't a need, they wouldn'd be hired.

[itchmesir]

What do you think the unemployment rate is north of the Mason Dixon line (thats from Hwy 2 north)? You won't find no figures for that. Whats going on in North Dakota is a blessing to anyone willing to go out and work their a** off. Whats wrong with umemployed MN people heading to ND to work rather than sit back and b*tch because there is nothing but min wage jobs at home? If there wasn't a need, they wouldn'd be hired.

Mason Dixon Line? Stuck in the 1800s are we? I don't think that's how they divide the country up these days

Basically what I'm getting at is don't expect to see a significant drop in unemployment if all the employees are coming from out of state

[Leaky]

No, not stuck in the 1800s. Just a saying that people who live north of Hwy 2 liked to say. You could look at a MN map and probably figure out what I mean.

[Tom7227]

Another article about how the politicians are making things work -

Scrutiny needed on BWCA swap

Boundary Waters land deal would mostly benefit industry.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/162419766.html

[Chode2235]

Did anyone else read the article in the Conservation Volunteer?

I thought it did a good job of explaining the HUGE opportunity, and the economic benefits to 'the range' and the rest of the state (especially in funding our schools); as well as explaining the great risks (i.e. no copper mine has ever operated 'safely' when it comes to sulfide releases, and no major mine has operated so close to so much water.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/julaug12/nonferrous.html

[Leaky]

Although I really like Dennis Anderson, he is a little off base of this one. He talks as if this discussion has just started as a result of the mineral exploration, yet the School Land Trust Swap has been being talked about since the Feds created this "Wilderness" in the 60s and 70s.

For someone who started his writing career in Ely during this time frame, he should know better.

[Leaky]

Did anyone else read the article in the Conservation Volunteer?

I thought it did a good job of explaining the HUGE opportunity, and the economic benefits to 'the range' and the rest of the state (especially in funding our schools); as well as explaining the great risks (i.e. no copper mine has ever operated 'safely' when it comes to sulfide releases, and no major mine has operated so close to so much water.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/julaug12/nonferrous.html

Now that was a good balanced read of what's at stake from both sides of the discussion. The alarmists continue to say we risk destroying the BWCA over a few hundred jobs. This is FAR bigger than that.

[Leaky]

Quote:

Another article about how the politicians are making things work

And here is how the envirmonmental groups roll. Nine years ago the Friends of the Boundary Waters had a huge campaign to add 90,000 acres to the BWCA. For the most part, it was tracts of land that was adjacent to the existing boundaries. Wrapped up in this noble act was one tract that never made any sense to me. It was about 50-60 miles from the nearest boundary, just outside of Hoyt Lakes. Now looking at it, if designated as untrammeled by man, it would have stopped Polymet dead in its tracks.

Agree or disagree, both sides have been at work on this for a while.