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Invention/patent question


Jameson

Question

If I invent something and start producing it without patenting it can someone come along and patent it and make me stop producing it?

No, I didn't figure out the floating ratchet. grin

Also if anyone has suggestions for patent lawyers please do share.

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theres alot of info via the online patent office site. but i know there is something about if you produce & market it before its patented and/or patent pending status thats its not a wise thing to do and you can lose rights to that invention...

copyrights are different but patents, you better do your homework or learn the hard way...

getting a patent, patent attorneys, having the the invention drafted up & written per patent office guidelines to be submitted, not to mention production is a very costly initial undertaking.

i've looked into it in the past & what stopped me was the cost related to it, as they say it takes money to make money...

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To your question.... I suppose....but even if you patent something, and it goes over well; there is really nothing stopping a larger entity from just tweaking it a little and calling it their own. And of course, the only way to possibly stop or slow this, is if you had a the coin to try to fight it. Not saying a patent is a bad idea, but if you do have a good idea, don't get too enamored with it; make it, market it, sell it.....and hope someone buys you out before the knock offs appear.

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To your question.... I suppose....but even if you patent something, and it goes over well; there is really nothing stopping a larger entity from just tweaking it a little and calling it their own. And of course, the only way to possibly stop or slow this, is if you had a the coin to try to fight it. Not saying a patent is a bad idea, but if you do have a good idea, don't get too enamored with it; make it, market it, sell it.....and hope someone buys you out before the knock offs appear.

Very true. A patent gives you the right the sue somebody, but you need the cash to do it. It will scare off some people, but if somebody really wants to steal it, look out.

Go into any store and look around. Almost everything there has other similar products from at least one other company. if the idea is very good you can try to protect it with both types of patents. I don't remember the names, but one protects the very idea, not just the product.

In the book "Patent it Yourself" the author writes that you can label a product with "patent rights reserved". It has no legal value at all, but will serve to scare off the masses. Patent pending can't be used unless you have actually filed for one.

I own a machine shop. If you need something machined, shoot me a pm and I will try to help you out. Good luck.

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I believe the answer is yes and no. I would think that it would be difficult to patent something that you have on the market already but if for just personal use probably yes.

The advise I was given by someone who had a patent was to write it down sign it and mail it to yourself certified, and leave it sealed, that would be your proof that on this date you had this idea.

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If I invent something and start producing it without patenting it can someone come along and patent it and make me stop producing it?

No, I didn't figure out the floating ratchet. grin

Also if anyone has suggestions for patent lawyers please do share.

If you are selling it, someone else can copy it and sell it too, but they can't patent it. If you patent it, they can still copy it and sell it and you have to sue them to collect damages or royalties, which can be an expensive proposition.

Using a lawyer to write a patent and file it is in the 5 to 10k range, depending. You can also do it yourself but that is difficult to get right. There are sites on the internet that will help with the process.

Once you have disclosed it or "offered it for sale" you have 1 year to file patent.

Also, you would be surprised how much stuff has already been patented. You can search at several sites including the patent office,

http://www.uspto.gov/patents/process/search/ to see if someone beat you to it.

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Thanks for the quick replies. I'm not sure how I want to proceed. Suppose talk to a patent attorney first. I have simplified my initial versions down to cut pieces of metal with holes drilled in them bolted together, so it's something that could be easily copied, but not something most homeowners would be able to do. My market that I designed it for is relatively small and localized, but there could be a greater market than I fully realize. I don't have dreams of being a multi-millionaire and retiring off of it, but do see initial profit of a few hundred thousand in the first 5 years.

sigh, I'm not a great business mind......

Thanks for the offer Wish-I-were-fishin.

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I believe the answer is yes and no. I would think that it would be difficult to patent something that you have on the market already but if for just personal use probably yes.

The advise I was given by someone who had a patent was to write it down sign it and mail it to yourself certified, and leave it sealed, that would be your proof that on this date you had this idea.

Since 2011, the US has a "first to file" rule for patents, so this is no longer of value.

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Thanks for the quick replies. I'm not sure how I want to proceed. Suppose talk to a patent attorney first. I have simplified my initial versions down to cut pieces of metal with holes drilled in them bolted together, so it's something that could be easily copied, but not something most homeowners would be able to do. My market that I designed it for is relatively small and localized, but there could be a greater market than I fully realize. I don't have dreams of being a multi-millionaire and retiring off of it, but do see initial profit of a few hundred thousand in the first 5 years.

sigh, I'm not a great business mind......

Thanks for the offer Wish-I-were-fishin.

Not to be doubtful, but "a few hundred thousand" is a lot. If that truly is the case, and you have the time, energy and money to market your product, then spending $10K or so on a lawyer might not be a bad idea. If this is something that you "may" pursue, then you're probably not going to want to plop down that kind of capital to sell a small number of units.

I use a place in Minneapolis, but I dont see my guys name on the HSOforum anymore, so he may have switched companies.

If your serious about this, send me a PM and I'll track down his contact info.

But... not for a few days at least. From my own personal experience, I get an idea, get super excited, plan how I'm gonna spend my spoils. Then after a few days half of them turn into "that's not feasible, what the heck was I thinking?". So, take it kinda slow, dont tell anyone about it, unless they are absolutely quiet and you trust that, think it out, get accurate materials costs, accurate labor costs, etc, then sit on it for a couple days and see if its still worth investing in.

Some of mine i've even pursued for months only to figure out it just wouldn't work or wasn't worth it, and its gonna happen that way sometimes.

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As far as someone tweaking your idea and getting around your patent, patents are written to be as vague as possible while still nailing down the original idea. This is how they protect against small tweaks off the main idea.

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As far as someone tweaking your idea and getting around your patent, patents are written to be as vague as possible while still nailing down the original idea. This is how they protect against small tweaks off the main idea.

You should know that a patent doesn't stop someone from copying you. It just lets you get a lawyer and sue them for damages.

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This has been stewing for over a year now. It went through several 'this ain't gonna work, that'll cost too much, what a pain to install' versions before I got to where I am now. I have talked to three experienced guys in the industry (30 years, 30 years, 20 years) and they have never been able to figure it out. There is a customer demand, and other ways to go about accomplishing what this does. Just that the retailers/installers discourage that product, because it is not user friendly. Hours have already been spent searching the patents and haven't found anything similar. I recently found out that the downtown library has better search program and am trying to make the time to get there.

I'm pass being it being something I might pursue. Now it's to figure out to flood the market with my product in hopes to beat out the competition, or patent it and go abouts it that way. It could be that it's so simple that it can't be patented and that I would be better of with a copyright or trademark and a good marketing campaign. confused

And ya I'm not scoffing at the potential money either. It would be a lot to me. So would chunking down 10 grand.

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Need investors?

Maybe, but if I do I gots that lined up, I think. Thanks.

....

folks, I'm not part of the HSO club or whatever it's called so I don't believe I can send PM's, but did just receive my first one. If I can figure it out I'll try and send out a couple.

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you can send PM's I think, unless they changed something. Go up to the top and click on "my stuff" and select messages from the drop down menu, while logged on.

My stuff

messages

Then what am I looking for? Don't see anything that says compose pm or send pm or ????? Like I said I'm not an HSO insider so I think I'm SOL.

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If you want to send a PM to someone, click on their name, then select Send a PM. Any PM's that you receive will be in that message folder.

Non insiders can get and send PM's but there is a limit to the number you can have in your inbox.

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or click on mystuff, click on messages, near top of window it says "new message" click on that.

My quota for private messages looks like it is 20 in the inbox.

I didn't know about that click on the name. I see how it works now.

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OK, talked to a buddy that is a patent agent for a large computer company here in Rochester. He estimated that by the time you got done getting the patent issued, if you used a IP law firm, you would be in the neighborhood of $20,000. That is writing the application and then haggling with the patent office over whether they should allow any or all of your claims.

It is possible to do it yourself should you choose to do so. Lot of work and trouble however. Apparently you submit the application, and they reject all or some of your claims for one or another reason. Then you have to submit more documents about why they are incorrect and your claims are really valid. Rinse, repeat.

At the end, if you really have an invention, you get a patent. Or maybe you don't have a patentable idea and you don't. Or you do but the claims are so narrow that it isn't worth much.

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