Change???? maybe a little.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

The part that you fail to realise or admitt is that a guy and his dog walking down a trail isn't putting any one or thing in harms way, now you on the other hand, by lazily putting a baited 220 10 yards of that very same trail are, in fact putting dogs in harms way, and you can't say your not. I watched a guy this past fall setting fox/ coyote scent post sets along the paved Paul Bunyan hiking/bike trail, within eyesight of the parking area, you can't tell me that guy wasn't asking for trouble, those are the type of people that got you in this position...

The part you don't seem to realize is that the very same thing could easily happen to you and your dogs, through no fault of your own.

It's a slippery downward slope, and we are all losing.

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

I think you're missing the point.

All it takes is for someone to go on a crusade like what just happened with the traps. All they have to do is get some graphic photos and take it to the media and tweet it over the internet, and you will find yourself in a defensive position. After all your dogs are used for hunting, so they must be killer dogs, right? And we let killer dogs run around loose on public land?

Just saying...

Oh I got the point, but it's not a realistic point that makes any sence, if Johnny can back up it up with stats, on how many people have been bit in the woods, on public land by bird dogs I'm willing to listen, but we all know he can't.

[Grayfox]

Guys,

There's been some good discussions for the most part on here over a pretty sensitive subject but I'd like to ask everyone to please click on the FORUM POLICY on the top of your screen before posting and take a second to read it.

Here's a few lines I'd like everyone to remember from it.

IMPORTANT-YOU MUST READ AND AGREE

before registering below, posting or using the forums.

This is a private community and we expect fun, friendly and positive posting patterns in this community. We do not want a complaint or argumentative oriented culture -

Please "Keep It Fun"

All complaints, argumentative/sarcastic posts, posts suggesting someone should not share information, name calling or labeling folks and aggressive posts are unwelcome here. If your post contributes to an argument or defensive behavior it will likely be considered aggressive. Please treat everyone here as if they are your friend.

Let's get back to posting some positive things on here as the trapping and furbearer seasons are winding down.

Thanks

Rob

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Oh I got the point, but it's not a realistic point that makes any sence, if Johnny can back up it up with stats, on how many people have been bit in the woods, on public land by bird dogs I'm willing to listen, but we all know he can't.

It will make a lot more sense if it happens to you. Statistics can be created in a heartbeat..

But I agree this whole discussion is going nowhere..

[Random guy]

Yes Rob. My bad...I need to go prep beaver traps, time out for Jonny in the garage.

[HunterLee]

I see no reason to limit them at all, there are fewer trappers these days than even 5-10 years ago. There is no way that i will go for any changes. Dog hunters and trappers have shared the woods for years, and have made it this far.

People need to be aware of trappers and vise versa. It is not like there are millions of traps per acre out there and if the hunter is worried about traps close to the trail maybe they shouldn't be lazy and get off the trails themselves???

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

Also the dog was a long ways from home when it got in the "bear trap".

I have no problem with the dog that gets caught, where he shouldn't be, although it's not the dogs fault it's the owners, unfortunatly that dog gets lumped in with the other ones.

Quote:

Todd I will agree that right away laws and ethics do need to be addressed. Nobody should be trapping by a paved trail and bird hunters should not have shot the front of my house either.

I agree as well if every one was as perfect and ethical as you and I our public lands would be a perfect place But we both know that ain't gonna happen either..

Now everybody be nice...

[walleye101]

Well this thread appears to be headed for lock down, but will repeat my suggestions from the hunting forum to try to get this back to debating some reasonable ideas.

First thing we need to agree on is that there is a problem. Good hunting dogs getting killed in traps doing what they are bred and trained to do is a problem. So is there a reasonable solution? A compromise where neither side looses but both give in a little? I would like to offer an idea as both a trapper and a dog runner.

Here are some facts.

The 220 trap is not the problem. It is the use of 220's in baited cubby sets, in places where they are likely to be encountered by dogs that is the problem. So lets not be talking about banning 220's on the ground or anyplace else. 220's are extremely effective on coon and SAFE when used as trail sets. They are also very effective and SAFE when used as partially submerged water sets. Lets focus on the problem set, the baited cubby, so if anything needs to be regulated it is the problem set, not the trap.

Baited 220 cubbies are primarily used for coon, fisher and bobcat. Smaller ones using 110's or 120's are often used for marten, or mink but those are safe so not a problem. Baited 220's are not effective as canine sets so that is not an issue.

Although coon, fisher and bobcat can all climb, elevated cubby sets are not nearly as effective, so that is not a reasonable solution for the trappers.

Coon trapping season is very long and spans most the hunting seasons, so more opportunity for conflict. Cat season is shorter but still plenty of overlap. Fisher season is currently a short 9 day season.

There are numerous alternatives to using baited cubbies for these animals but the set is often preferred for various reasons. One is that this set is very weather proof and can remain a workable set for long periods of time. But likely the main advantage is that lethal sets only have to be check every third day. For a long line coon trapper(running more traps) or part timer (checking before work), that can be more efficient. For cat trapping that is a huge advantage since cats range widely and may only come through an area once a week. Three day checks save lots of wasted trips. Fisher is a whole different story but the short 9 day season offers a fairly simple solution.

Minnesota trapping regulations already use northern forest zone and southern agriculture zone designations. Generally speaking most of the cat/fisher trapping occurs in the northern zone, and most of the coon trapping occurs in the southern zone. Yes, there are exceptions but that is primarily the case.

The southern zone is also primarily private land, with public hunting areas (WMA's) at a premium. Those are obviously the places most likely to be heavily hunted so lets keep baited cubbies out of those obvious problem areas.

Use baited cubbies on private land with landowner permission. I know from experience it is not hard to get permission to trap coon on private ag land. If hunters also get permission it is totally reasonable to ask if anyone is trapping there.

The other main source of public land in the southern zone is road right of way. Keep baited cubbies out of those as well. There are plenty of effective coon sets to use in those areas like the 220 trail set, dog proofs, leg holds in water crossing etc. Using a baited cubby next to a public road is asking for trouble.

The northern forest zone has an abundance of public land so plenty of opportunity for hunting dogs and trapper conflict. Coon are certainly present in the northern zone but not nearly as abundant as in the south. There are plenty of alternatives for catching coon on public land in the forest zone, so it would not be a huge sacrifice to give up the baited cubby in the early fall. Use them on private land with permission but keep them off public land during the main Oct-Nov hunting seasons.

Fisher/cat seasons have generally opened concurrently the weekend after Thanksgiving. Allow the baited cubbie on the ground during the 9 day fisher/cat season, and publicize it well. This is a dangerous week for dogs and advise folks to hunt only at their own risk. This is no different than taking deer season off when no one would think of running their dog.

When fisher season closes get the baited cubbies off public land. Continue to run them on private land with permission, but it is really not fair to tie up public land for a month and a half for trapper use only. For late season cat trapping lets give trappers a three day check on leg holds like most of the western cat states. A dog stumbles into a leghold set and it is just unpleasant experience not a lethal encounter.

How about that plan for a reasonable compromise?

[Saw557]

You know I could be wrong but I can't seen to find anything that has to do with gun dogs in the woods, trappers being bit, other hunters being bit, if I missed it please feel free to point it out to me. You say youv'e been bit a couple times, Iv'e been around them all my life, trained, or helped train a bunch of them and not once have I been bit, see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

I've been around and trained dogs for a long time also I have also set many many many 220's and have never caught a dog.....just saying. As a bird dog hunter I am willing to compromise with a shortened season ( I've already got my legal possession limit) so why aren't other bird hunters willing to compromise. It's because they don't want to and deep down although they hate to admit they want to see the out right banning of trapping or they would be more open to change. Just admit it

[Trashguy]

Saw557, not don't get all mad at me again, but why do you keep bringing up the 10 possession thing with grouse? That is only possession not a limit for the year/season. I catch 6 Northerns, or 12 Walleye and I am done fishing for them for the year? Just curious. Be nice with your reply please. And for the record, I don't have a problem with shorting the grouse season, but that is just me.

[Saw557]

Saw557, not don't get all mad at me again, but why do you keep bringing up the 10 possession thing with grouse? That is only possession not a limit for the year/season. I catch 6 Northerns, or 12 Walleye and I am done fishing for them for the year? Just curious. Be nice with your reply please. And for the record, I don't have a problem with shorting the grouse season, but that is just me.

No point getting mad at anyone I understand possession limit I also know how it works in the real world I know many bird hunters that shoot many times their possession limit in September and October and still have them in the freezer come December and fish for that matter. I also firmly believe no matter what the limit is the birds that survive until December deserve a break. Or maybe we should just kill them all and then there would be no reason for a dog to be in the woods .... Problem solved

[swampman]

From someones perspective in the pheasnt range I am going to adress something that really has'nt been mentioned, baited cubbys or buckets really are not very effective in the fall for coon and most guys I know, myself included use them in the late winter early spring coon season when there is no bird dog hunting going on, why restrict them at that time? I run into nobody else that time of year, as far as row if you are the legal distance from someones house I dont see a problem, probably not a good idea to be walking your dog unleashed along a road anyway.

[9339za]

The DNR isn't doing us any favors with their bill. More dogs are going to die and putting trappers right in the crosshairs next session. I can't understand why the DNR is going out of their way to break the bond between hunters and trappers. This is going to really hurt trappers.

We need to contact the DNR and tell them we want a REAL solution.

[9339za]

Actually trail sets are killing dogs too. WCCO had a segment on a rabbit hunter who nearly lost his dog in a trail set. Ever dog I've ever seen runs with it's nose down a lot of the time.

[Saw557]

Actually trail sets are killing dogs too. WCCO had a segment on a rabbit hunter who nearly lost his dog in a trail set. Ever dog I've ever seen runs with it's nose down a lot of the time.

Of. course WCCO ran the story it will be in the Star this weekend and back on WCCO next week it's been said many times the metro are wants a solution for rural situation. They want to reserve the entire northland for their playground. I live and work here and at some point there has to a line in the sand you can only back up so far. I find it hard to believe thah some people think the DNR plan doesn't go far enough if they really believe that then you know what their solution is .....ban all trapping. I think the DNR plan has gone far enough although it doesn't leave a bobcat trapper many options. There is a reason they require elevated sets in the lynx zone they don't climb and neither does a bobcat. If bird hunters really wanted to work towards a solution they would be more open to closing grouse season mid December as I've mentioned before but comprise isn't on their agenda

[Random guy]

it's been said many times the metro are wants a solution for rural situation.

Now that is an understatement! How dare we all attempt to make a living in the state park. Bunch of dirty hillbillies all living like savages in the woods. Zero understanding of rural life other then it is wrong.

[Ybone]

So you want to close grouse season early because you're done hunting and everyone else should be too and they probably have their limit maybe even freezers full plus the grouse need a break or there won't be any left even though studies have shown that December hunting has little to do with overall bird numbers.

[9339za]

I believe the guy on WCCO was a southern MN beagle hunter.

Other than a 3 day check what real advantage is there to body grips for bobcats? Does it outweigh killing more fisher that can't be sold at a time when our fisher population is dropping?

[Saw557]

So you want to close grouse season early because you're done hunting and everyone else should be too and they probably have their limit maybe even freezers full plus the grouse need a break or there won't be any left even though studies have shown that December hunting has little to do with overall bird numbers.

Yup I want to close grouse season December 15 it's called compromise rember that's what this is about not take from one group. I have yet to hear one bird hunter complain about the 16 day big game season and why is this it's because there are a half million deer hunters. How would it go over if i turned my dog wirh a beeper on loose opening day of deer season you dont need much of an imagination to figure that out there are some things you dont do just because you can There are only 8000 trappers so it's a lot eaiser target

I have yet to hear one bird hunter give a good reason for a 120 day grouse season other than that's the way it's always been. Using the same logic I should be able to set a 220 on the ground also. If this was about compromise then what is giving up 15 days out of a 120 day season but it's not about compromise its about banning trapping

As far as using conibears for bobcats if you have ever done it or know anything about it a 3 day check is a huge deal give us a 3 day check on snares and it might be considered a fair compromise

Unlike a lot of people here I know what I am talking about on both bird hunting and trapping and I am not buying into the media hype phantom dog deaths or near deaths as the latest story. I have no time for the ignorant people who don't know what they're talking about and seem to think they need their hand held every time they go potty or venture outdoors

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Yup I want to close grouse season December 15 it's called compromise rember that's what this is about not take from one group. I have yet to hear on bird hunter complain about the 16 day big game season when IMO you would have to be crazy to hunt birds during and why is this it's because there are a half million deer hunters. How would it go over if i turned my dog wirh a beeper on loose opening day of deer season you dont need much of an imagination to figure that out there are some things you dont do just be because you can There are only 8000 trappers so it's a lot eaiser target

+1.

Only Nov. 30th would be better..

[mattson]

i'v been reading some of these post well most of then i'm a dog owner and a hunter, and i also want to get into trapping. One of the reason i want to get into trapping is that it helps to controll and keeps the animals in check. Look at what ducks unliminted is doing and Deta is trying to do out in the dakotas. I just feel that if we limit trapping were going to see other changes in like fewer birds. Because these like in Raccon, coty, skunk they all eat eggs. There other things that play into effect to but come on people. WE cant let this go down this road. There risks out every where we go. I just don't want to see a ban on Trapping.(sorry about the spelling but it just frustrates me to no end.)

[Random guy]

I can't understand why the DNR is going out of their way to break the bond between hunters and trappers. This is going to really hurt trappers.

We need to contact the DNR and tell them we want a REAL solution.

The DNR is looking at the REAL solution. They are seeing past a couple dogs and looking at the carrying capacity of most managed habitats. The backlash of furbearer populations growing out of control and the loss of the one effective control tool they have against overpopulating furbearing species. The DNR loses trapping or even slows it down anymore they lose controlled management. The DNR is also looking at the loss of license revenue, state revenue and even the domino effect that restricting one sport can create. First it’s the 220 giving the anti’s ammo to push for the end of snares, and then traps all together. This is before it goes to automatic shotguns then multiple shot game guns and maybe even the use of dogs.

Sorry to burst your bubble but its a big hard mean world out there with a big hot sun burning every day, it’s not all walks in the park with your dog.

[9339za]

Restricting body grip traps in a way that prevents killing dogs won't be the end of trapping. It won't even slow it down. Body grip traps are just a tool and we need to adapt that tool to a changing woods or we will lose it completely.

Continuing to kill dogs WILL threaten trapping and I don't want to see that.

[FCspringer]

Thank you Gray Fox. And I am sorry if this gets to that point again. I thought it was possible, but perhaps I was wrong.

Fellas, have you all read the sugestions I came up with in the first few posts? Do you have some other Ideas? If not just don't argue and post. Change is going to happen you can bet on that. It would most likely be better for the sportsmen involved to have ideas that work, then to have someone not involved in making the decisions. Flinging mud around will only result in some landing on the trap and springing it forever. Get back to ideas to keep em set. The closing of grouse season by a certain date has been brought up. Funny thing about the fisher, I have seen some down this far south recently. They basicly are not know to be this far south. Perhaps it is that the population is not in such a decline as one thinks. I see them in the same area I set ground sets for coon with 220's. I have not caught one ever. I do not target them however. But at one tree stand I have a set just 30 yards away along the river bank. And he has been there several times. Always trying hard to get the rabbits out of the big brush pile that is there. Neat scene.

[9339za]

The DNR furbearer biologist John Erbe came to our group and gave a talk on fisher. He said that statewide the population is headed downward in the traditional areas but is slightly increasing in the non-traditional areas. I have to wonder what impact the incidental take of fisher in bobcat body grips is having on the overall population. The same thing must be happening with marten.

They are a neat animal and I would have to have them removed from trapping season.

I think that most grouse hunters would be okay with a 9 day body grip season. We already stay out of the woods during deer season. Or move the 9 day season after the first of the year. Or require them to be set in boxes with holes restricted to 3 or 3 1/2". That's plenty of room for a fisher or marten even the big males.

Some of us trappers catch plenty without resorting to body grips on the ground and entire states require body grips off the ground so I don't understand why MN trappers can't too.