Framer Labor Rates?

[muddpuppy]

I am looking to have a small cabin expanded. it is curently 12x40 I want to make it 24x40. I have plan and a material list.etc. I would really like to do it all myself for Funs sake. but I would also like to have it stayable befor to long. So I am thinking I will meet myself in the middle and farm out the following

Strait rambler style nothing fancy 24x40 Frame, windows, sideing, and roof.

How will most builders estimate this by the Sq Ft or? I really have no clue and would like an idea before getting estimates.

[chad austin]

Most guys will probably bid it out by the SQ FT. It's been a while since I have been in the field actually doing the work but I would have bid it out around $5.00 a SQ FT for labor. This was before the housing market went into the toilet, so with that being said it may be a little cheaper now.

[Gordie]

Yep most contractor will do it by the square ft along with a provision for any problems that may occuor with the exsisting structure meaning if something castsophic were to be wrong with the foundation lets say they are going to charge more than the estimate.

I used to have to do this with 75 yr old house for the roofs 3 layers of shingles and your never know what you will find under them until you tear into it.

Something to ask about

[MN_Jay]

This is what I do for a living so I'll give you my 2 cents, although it may only be worth a penny...

I agree with the comment above on $5 for new construction on framing (not included siding, roofing or windows) but personally I'd be hesitant giving a square foot price on additions/remodels because they can be many variables. The first thing I notice about your project right away is you are making the house wider. Typically this is more labor intensive than making the house longer because you generally have more labor in your roof.

I'm assuming you have a gable roof with the ridge running the 40 ft length? How will you incorporate the new roof? If you plan on removing the roof totally and putting a new roof on then your price will increase significantly.

Also whatever you do to the roof will require you to reshingle the whole thing, unless your old roof is less than 5 years old there will be color differences due to weathering.

At the end of the day you may get a square foot price but personally I think it will be much more than $5 per square foot. I wouldn't be surprised if it's over $10 just on framing just because of your roof.

Hope this helps.

[JohnMickish]

What would you do with the roof? I am actually thinking of doing a similar remodel to my house the I'm afraid of the roof issue.

[K_Josh87]

I'll back up jays comment as a builder... I would say typical new construction framing should be anywhere from 5-8 bucks a sq foot normally,however remods are tough to put bid numbers on these days, and I have found typically it is such a competitive market, that with half dozen plus guys bidding on it, that if your hiring the bottom dollar guy, they probably missed something, and will either cost you, or them in the long run... I'd expect hourly rates anywhere from 30-40 per man hour... Location, permitting, travel costs, and jobsite access also play a fairly good roll in bidding projects... I am basing my numbers on my experience around the mankato area... hope it helps!

[MN_Jay]

What would you do with the roof? I am actually thinking of doing a similar remodel to my house the I'm afraid of the roof issue.

This is what we have done in the past. Cut off all the eaves of the old, then set new parallel chord rafters next to the old rafters, bearing on the top plate of the wall. You will need to cut a small section of roofing away from the old roof to access the top of the wall. Hopefully you can read this sketch I did.

The advantage of doing it this way as opposed to removing the old roof completely is you get to keep the old ceiling and as well as the electrical in it, which can be a big money saver.

Hope this helps

[JohnMickish]

I see, this would be a great way to put in a vaulted ceiling while a guy was at it and really open things up. I can also see where that would raise the cost by a bunch too.

Thanks for the explination.

[delcecchi]

That is a great idea. Leave the old roof in the attic of the new. I would never have thought of that.

[muddpuppy]

Wow I was out for a couple weeks, Thank you for the replys. I am still waiting on the signed papers saying this place is mine.

My plan is to demo the whole building saving the exterior framming to save $$. The existing foundation needs work and I need to have the foundation for the addition poured. The plan is to have a rambler stayl house with partial vaulted celing.

At this point I think I will be farming out the foundation work. I will be doing the rough framming and will hire out the roofing and siding. I guess a lot will come down to the bidds I get after the county lets me know what the will let me do.

Another question I have for the builders. If your customer wanted a sqf bid and not a hrs bid would you still do it? the reason I ask is perseption is king If I show up on the site and guys are standing around I would feel like I am being taken advantage of. How do you guys deal with that situation?

Thanks again for all the replys

[Tom7227]

I have a few thoughts even though I am not a builder.

How old is the building and how sound is the portion you intend to keep? Is that area well built, is the electrical/plumbing in good enough shape, are the walls properly built and strong enough to hold the extra weight, are they insulated to the extent that you would want????

It sounds as if you don't live near the cabin and so you really would have a hard time monitoring what was going on. I think your best bet is to find a general contractor that has a good reputation that you have checked out. No offense to anyone but in some rural areas things like a building code have no meaning. IMO codes are there for the safety of the inhabitants and so I would want a pretty strict compliance. You're talking about several sets of skills and you probably would have some trouble finding subs that are proficient and who could work together.

I would ask for a firm bid with a detailed contract and then be prepared to spend at least an additional 15% due to unforeseen developments.

Good luck.

Oh, add an additional 5% that you'll have to spend on your wife and family to keep them happy while this whole thing goes on. It will likely be a stressful 6 months for all of you.

[chad austin]

Wow I was out for a couple weeks, Thank you for the replys. I am still waiting on the signed papers saying this place is mine.

My plan is to demo the whole building saving the exterior framming to save $$. The existing foundation needs work and I need to have the foundation for the addition poured. The plan is to have a rambler stayl house with partial vaulted celing.

At this point I think I will be farming out the foundation work. I will be doing the rough framming and will hire out the roofing and siding. I guess a lot will come down to the bidds I get after the county lets me know what the will let me do.

Another question I have for the builders. If your customer wanted a sqf bid and not a hrs bid would you still do it? the reason I ask is perseption is king If I show up on the site and guys are standing around I would feel like I am being taken advantage of. How do you guys deal with that situation?

Thanks again for all the replys

The only way we bid out roofing and siding is by the SQ. I would personally be very cautious of a contractor bidding by the hour as you wouldn't know your true cost until the job was completed. Be sure to check out contractors before signing anything and handing over a check.

You can PM me and I would be willing to give you a few more pointers as to what to watch out for as far as shady contractors go.

[MN_Jay]

I would personally be very cautious of a contractor bidding by the hour as you wouldn't know your true cost until the job was completed.

I agree 100%, do not hire someone by the hour. I bid all of my jobs as hard numbers with the exception of unforeseen circumstances. When I give my proposal to the customer it details everything. Plumbing, electrical heating, etc. If someone wants a square foot price then I just take my proposal and divide it by the square footage and there it is.

Incidentally, I wouldn't accept anything less if I were you.

[muddpuppy]

Well I got my signed paperwork so I called the county board about getting a variance and was just about told not to waste my time...OUCH.....that sucks.....So with that said all my plans have changed Thank you all for your time. With that said this might be for another board but does anyone know haw to get a around lake lot var. application?

[MN_Jay]

There is no way to get around them per se. You have to prove a hardship on why they should grant you a variance. Is the variance for increased square footage on your lot, proximity to a lake or setbacks from property lines? It makes a difference on how to approach it. I've gotten square footage variances by saying that the family is growing and simply needs more home space. Setback variances can usually be granted if there is no other side of your house to add your addition for varying reasons.

[muddpuppy]

yes it is a setback variance, Basically I am on a channel to a lake. The county person I talked to is on the board and said due to the regulations on septic and setbacks there is really no room to add. He gave me all the info I needed and a estimated price of 1500- 2k in fees to complete the application. He then gave me recent examples of others in the area trying to do the same for the same reasons and their outcomes. Not good outcomes for spending that kind of money. So I have to assume he is telling me to save my money for a good reason. Like I mentioned he is on the board of approvers. So Sucks for me kinda....

[MN_Jay]

$1500 - $2000 is ridiculous. Here we pay $400 and even that is too much since all they do is put you on a schedule for a hearing and send out a few letters to the neighbors. Sorry about your luck.

[muddpuppy]

I compleatly agree, I was told $400 for the app fee, then a certified land survey, Certified septic and well inspections, and certified build plans. I would need all this inorder to submitt the application.

[Tom7227]

I can't tell from this thread if you just bought the place or have owned it for a while. If you just bought it and the seller made any representation that you could do what you have written about you may be able to do something about their misrepresentation. On the other hand if you didn't ask or check it out yourself then I think you're SOL.

[muddpuppy]

yes we just bought it, I checked this stuff out a little over a year ago and was told by the county it would not be a problem to add on. It was a long process to buy this place. Now things have tightend some I have been told by the county. So yes I do think I am SOL in a way, I am happy with the buy and disapointed as of right now with not being able to expand. I bought from Fannie Mae so there is no recourse.

[delcecchi]

Have you got the "no problem to add on" in writing from the county? Which county?

[Surface Tension]

Its been a while since I've had to deal with lake setbacks.

Was your plan to put the addition toward the lake?

If so I can see that as a problem.

Curious as to your lot size. Did you show the board member a map of the lot with proposed addition and expanded septic system planned by a state lic designer? Unless the lot is tiny I don't know how the board member could say one way or the other till they saw that.

Going Up is sometimes an option but being 12' wide and needing room for septic expansion is still there.

[muddpuppy]

It is a small lot 7000sqf I think .16 of an acre, I was looking to add 12x20 so half the space. That is what others have told me I should expect. the lot already has septic and a well that I would not touch. I would be adding to the back side of the cabin away from the water. There is plenty of room in my opinion. I think I am going to get the land survey anyways so I might as well just try and see. I think I will kick myself down the road for not trying.

[BoxMN]

Muddpuppy, I recall reading a story about how SOME zoning (city and state) are starting to work with homeowners a bit more by doing some give-and-take regarding variances. Basically that if you promise/plan to protect more the lakeshore (i.e. not turn it into lawn, or put in catch basin in some situations, etc.) they will work more with you on things like decks, additions, etc. Maybe worth a few questions to see if that in fact is happening in your area. I know in Crow Wing cnty they have been doing it like allowing a bigger or closer deck area if the homeowner will restore a portion of their shoreline.

Good luck! I know the non-permeable surface % restriction might be the thing hitting you, as that is something they are getting real picky on all over.

[MN_Jay]

I compleatly agree, I was told $400 for the app fee, then a certified land survey, Certified septic and well inspections, and certified build plans. I would need all this inorder to submitt the application.

Ok this smell fishy. I've dealt with a lot of variance hearings and all the requirements of "certified" documents is bull if you ask me. I can see the septic certification since you are probably adding bedrooms, but I can honestly say I've never heard of "certified" building plans - and I was a drafter before becoming a contractor. Who certifies them and for what?

Also why in the world would you need a certified well inspection? As long as your new structure meets the setbacks from the well then who the heck cares what kind of shape it's in? If it goes bad, then you drill a new one.

Land survey is always a good idea if you buy a property but if you can find the buried pins yourself why pay someone else to do it?

I would double check these requirements told to you. It just seems very odd to me.