Bathroom Tiling question

[frazwood]

My wife and I were planning on renovating our bathroom this summer. Part of that project is the replacement of the pre-existing vinyl floor with a new tile floor.

In the past, we have put down a layer of 3/4 inch plywood (glued and screwed) with a layer of 1/4 inch hardibacker cement board (thin-set and screwed) underneath the tiles.

After watching far too much of the DIY network, I am now thinking of applying DITRA instead of what we've done previously. It's far lighter and it should make the transition from tile floor to carpet smaller/smoother/shorter.

According to the Schluter/DITRA HSOforum, they suggest that 3/4 inch OSB (assuming that joists are 16-inch OC) plus a layer of DITRA is sufficient for porcelain or ceramic tile. They recommend additional sheathing for natural stone tile.

I am hoping to get some feedback on people's experiences with the DITRA. Specifically, how did the tile/grout hold up over the long term? It looks like it's very easy to apply and it's much lighter. I just would like to know that it works as promised by the company that sells it.

[pureinsanity]

DITRA??? is she related to DTRO?

Never used it, however I have put tile over plywood with a flexible membrane and so far no cracks nothing! about a year now its been in. I am assuming DITRA based on a quick look is very similar in its method of function

You are doing a bathroom. I think this method should be fine as most bathrooms are NOT that big. I say go for it,

[Tom7227]

I bought some this summer and I think it cost $40 a sheet, way way more expensive than cement board. I ended taking it back and going with cement board. I have had very good success buying from the Tile Shop. They have a DVD that you can buy that lays the entire process out for you step by step and I referred to that numerous times during my project. Good materials available from them along with sound advice from the staff.

[Stratosman]

It works great...as advertised. They say you can tile immediatly after laying it, but I prefer to wait. I have also pre-filled the waffles with thinset in the past. It helps when chalking lines. Another thing when laying out your grid is to use a Sharpie marker, shows up real good on the orange and doesn't rub off.

Just make sure you have the right joist size and spacing and don't need a layer of plywood, if you do, and your sub is 3/4", a layer of 3/8" plywood is sufficient. Either way. Good luck.

The time savings in bathroom especially is worth a few extra bucks for the product.

[IamZombie]

Maybe it's just me, but I'd avoid OSB at all costs.

I just don't like the stuff.

http://www.nachi.org/osb-plywood.htm

[traveler]

I used ditra a couple years ago on my bathroom floor...easy to work with, I thought it was a great product. BUT...now i have a grout joint thats failing for the 2nd time in 2 years...I don't know that I can blame it on the ditra, but it's a bit of a PITA to regrout it every year.

[jmd1]

One suggestion, when i had my bathroom done, the folks laid the tile under the toilet. about a year later the wax ring started leaking. come to find out after pulling the toilet that the drain pipe was not long enough so they put two rings on it. i had to dig out the slab, put a collar on and extend the drain up so a new ring would lock the toilet in place. while you don't have a slab to deal with, make sure that the drain pipe is tall enough to make up for the new floor.

[Redlantern]

Putting two wax rings on shouldn't be a problem. More likely that the tile installers don't know how to set a toilet. If they don't shim it correctly, it will rock, which in turn will lead to a leak.

[frazwood]

Everyone: Thank you for the responses. Additional stories of people's experiences with DITRA are certainly welcome.

A few responses:

Tom7227: I suppose that prices vary, especially depending on the products that you use and where you buy them. I have used Hardibacker cement board in the past, which is about $1 per sq ft, plus you have to buy the correct screws (which are expensive)... so I am guessing that cement board is about $1.50 per sq. ft, which I think is about the cost of DITRA. Regardless, since we're doing a full gut and re-build, the cost of DITRA vs. cement board is irrelevant in the overall cost of the project... I just want the better product, which involves a lot of factors (price, ease of installation, long-term performance, weight, etc).

Matt S: The builder of the house used OSB. I am not a huge fan of it either, but I like it better than pulling it up and replacing it. At worst, I'll apply a layer of plywood on top of it.

Traveler: Did you following the directions as far as subflooring and joist spacing? That's my worry... that I'll follow the directions and I'll have cracking grout in a couple of years.

jmd1/Redlantern: I had a similar issue a couple of years ago when we tiled a different bathroom. I went to a big box store and they had plastic O-rings/rubber gaskets that effectively increased the thickness of the toilet flange, such that we were able to set the toilet with a single wax ring. I don't know if these are to code (in hindsight, I should have done more research) or will last over the long-term, but so far... no leaks (I do know how to set a toilet correctly).

[traveler]

I was just going over an existing floor (vinyl sheet goods) so I assume everything is kosher with the floor underneath. I'm a floor guy (although mostly carpet) so it's kind of a head scratcher to me why the trouble in just the one small area.

[theicehooker]

All i do is glue down 1/4 hardie backer over the vinyl. Nail down with roofing mailer. Use the PL product for the glue. Use alot of nails. Every six inches in the field and a little tighter on the seams. Then use fiberglass mesh tape on the seams. I am a contractor and that is what my tile guy does and he is VERY good.

[Stratosman]

Honestly if I were you I'd be looking for a new tile installer.. PL? If he ever has an issue and starts looking for manufacturer's to warranty the install he's gonna have a big problem... cause they will just smile and say, your on you own. Actaully using a construction adhesive is worse than using nothin at all, it creates low spots between adhesive lines which lead to underlayment flex. Spreading thinset under the CBU is the only TCA approved method for installation. It fills voids and low spots and gives the CBU a solid bed to sit on. It isn't actaully made to "glue" the CBU to the subfloor, the screws do that.

AND he goes over existing vinyl/luan? Hope he works in my area, I love job security!

Beleive me when I say that I have tore out numerous floors that someone had PL'd to the sublfoor, all had cracking. I have another one next week, 350 sqft only 5 years old and hairline cracks. Customer said the guy "glued" down the CBU....

just my 2 cents..

[frazwood]

I saw a trick similar to this on a home improvement show once. They used thinset to put down hardibacker on top of vinyl and then tiled on top of that.

I considered using this "trick" when doing one of our previous renovations, but got scared and decided against it. So, I removed the existing vinyl and subfloor and started over.

This time, I am going to remove the existing vinyl because I learned last time that it isn't that difficult to do. I'm charging myself a really good rate for labor (I'm free!), so I have no incentive to cut corners.

[jmd1]

I should further update on my wax ring issue. After thinking about what i had to do and reviewing pictures not only did the increase in the tile raise the floor but the drain pipe was also broken off. My have continued to hold with original tile but to come back with new it did not set right, intact looking at my master bath they did not go under the toilet simply laid up to it. So that may have been the thing that happened with the second toilet. But now i know it is right so no worries til something else breaks. good luck

[theicehooker]

Honestly if I were you I'd be looking for a new tile installer.. PL? If he ever has an issue and starts looking for manufacturer's to warranty the install he's gonna have a big problem... cause they will just smile and say, your on you own. Actaully using a construction adhesive is worse than using nothin at all, it creates low spots between adhesive lines which lead to underlayment flex. Spreading thinset under the CBU is the only TCA approved method for installation. It fills voids and low spots and gives the CBU a solid bed to sit on. It isn't actaully made to "glue" the CBU to the subfloor, the screws do that.

AND he goes over existing vinyl/luan? Hope he works in my area, I love job security!

Beleive me when I say that I have tore out numerous floors that someone had PL'd to the sublfoor, all had cracking. I have another one next week, 350 sqft only 5 years old and hairline cracks. Customer said the guy "glued" down the CBU....

just my 2 cents..

Just like any other job out there. Some people do things half [PoorWordUsage]. We glue........didnt say how we glue you just assumed that we squirt a couple beads around the board and smack it down. The only time i use glue is over vinyl. I always thinset my backer down. We always thinset the tile down. We may be lost in translation here. Evidently the guy that did the floor your working on before you did a [PoorWordUsage] job. My tile guy does tile in million $+ homes. I think he may know a thing or two.

[Stratosman]

I hear ya there...guy was a total hack, didn't even undercut jambs..

All I am saying is that if something ever goes wrong with an install and there is PL anywhere on the assembly, no manufacturer will extend their warranty to the job. Didn't mean to jump on you about it, but it makes me nervous when advice is given that doesn't exactly mesh with proper procedure...anyway....

All that really matters is you're happy with him!

I am sure he does great work.

[arrow]

If you want it to last a lifetime do a mud float first. We tear up floors from the early part of the 1900's that are still great. Its really not that hard to do, I did my own bath floor and it took maybe 3 hours tops. First you put down tar paper, cover with either plastic or metal lathe, then mix up the mud and float it out. Its a really dry mix and easy to work with. You float it about 3/4" to 1" thick. I have been a contractor for 25 years and have never had a mud float floor fail. I have experimented with Hardie, Durrock, the self leveling, plywood, etc all with failures. Every couple years someone comes out with some new idea that seems to inevitably have issues. The mud float will not fail you. If you don't want to do it yourself have someone do the prep and then tile yourself. If your just doing the tile and hoping to dump the house before grout starts to fail etc then let your conscience be the guide.

[theicehooker]

arrow......

you just tripled the cost of install and may not win a bid. I agree with you though. That method is solid. I have never had an issue with cement backer.