Muzzle loader season

[snowfighter]

Question so if a person tagged a deer in rifle season can you still buy a muzzle loader licence and party hunt but not tag a deer?

[TruthWalleyes]

Yes you can.

[snowfighter]

Thanks I thought it sounded like it made sense.

[Boonie5]

You can also hunt by yourself if your in a managed area you can use a bonus tag. Or if you Rifle hunt in a nonmanaged zone and taged a doe you can shot a buck with a muzzeloader in a managed area.

[Jameson]

Question so if a person tagged a deer in rifle season can you still buy a muzzle loader licence and party hunt but not tag a deer?

Short answer is yes.

1)What kind of area (lotto, managed, intensive) did you tag a deer in?

2)Was it an antlered buck?

3)What kind of area will you be hunting in w/ muzzy?

4)If lotto area do you win the lottery and get a doe tag?

Answer these questions and you may still have other options available.

[snowfighter]

I will hunt in a hunters choice area where I tagged a buck during rifle season

[Jameson]

ok, than ya you are limited to party hunting. Good luck!

[kc0myy]

unfortunately yes you can.

[hockeybc69]

I am with kc0myy on this one..... What a dumb law.

Travel all around the state and keep shooting deer at will.

[certified jumbo]

I am with kc0myy on this one..... What a dumb law.

Travel all around the state and keep shooting deer at will.

Snowfighter asked a question which people answered. I didn't see where he asked for opinions?? Lets try not to fight, its getting old.

[hockeybc69]

Easy to stray off topic....

Agreed.

[certified jumbo]

Easy to stray off topic....

Agreed.

Don't worry, i'm guilty too. I'm going to do my best to refrain from fighting after some recent topics have gotten a little heated.

[FISHINGURU]

Instead of starting a new thread I'll just ask here.

My buddy bow hunts and he bought his normal bow license and a management tag. He didn't get any deer so now he bought his muzzleloader license.

He is wondering if he can shoot a doe with his muzzleloader and use that management tag and still try to use his muzzleloader to get a buck?

If I remember right you can, just making sure before I tell him he can plug a doe with the muzzleloader and still use it and try for a buck.

[paceman]

fishinguru - yes. The management tag once bought is good for bow, rifle or muzzy, as long as you have the regular main tag your buddy can drop a doe with the muzzy, tag it with the Bonus and still chase the elusive buck with the muzzy and bow or he could shoot another doe, as long as he is in a management or intensive area.

[Musky Buck]

I'll cap this thread off, glad it's over, 11 AM and PM sits and like rifle for the most part, 0 seen. Best part is I'm guaranteed to get 1 shot off, to empty my gun. It'll be interesting once the snow flies and the deer group up to see were deer numbers as low as they appeared or were they that smart in avoiding us. Likely a combo of the 2.

[FISHINGURU]

Hey your not the only one, I hunt in SE MN on a couple different primo lands. I passed on deer all year, let many nice bucks pass. I was pumped to get out there this year with the Omega.

Well low and behold I hunted 7 times and didn't see a single deer in my stands on 2 different properties. Seen 2 deer all muzzleloader season and that was kicking them out of a field at dark on my way back to the truck.

I'm out of venny and getting hungry. Time to pull out the bow and try to make something happen!! I don't mind eating my buck tag since I hold out for a big one every year but I atleast need a fat doe for ice fishing grub!!

[lakevet]

Much more enjoyable season than past few years. No hunter conflicts with trophy hunters (who had already hunted archery and modern firearm thru the rut) trying to get us to leave areas where we were first but their trail cams, etc. etc. had "patterned " a buck they wanted to hunt on public land. Leaves a very bad taste in one's mouth to have to deal with those guys. Well this year they had either got the big one (and sincerely happy for them if they did), gave up, or were ice fishing. Nice and quiet in the woods. 6 of us had shooting opportunities on about 9 or 10 deer under 30 yards. Harvested 3 of those, 2 by drivers/trackers and one by a stander. Should have filled out, but that's why they call it hunting instead of shooting 3 very large bucks gave us a thrill, but no shots taken. Total deer seen in season between 50 to 60. Oh and one bear. Bulk of hunt was public land with low deer density and wolves.

Rating for enjoyment of season: A+ low hunter numbers, able to use old style hunting tactics (tracking/drives some 1.5 miles long) great time with family

Hunter success 50% a little low for us, Worst muzzy year was 33%. Group a little smaller this year with the 20 somethings busy with school and work.

Rating for deer numbers: more typical year compared to the overpopulated high deer herd we have had for quite a few years. This year deer locations were more spotty with more "dead zones" without deer. A more traditional historically normal deer population and distribution considering my 38 years of deer hunting in the area. Prefer this level of deer population. Have to actually hunt them to get one, as apposed to past years when they were everywhere.

Remember we work very hard (several drives 1.5 miles long each thru large swamps/brush in a single day, and doing it day after day) and most people will not work that hard, don't have the skill set to track/stalk/ place standers in right locations etc. But it is how it was done around here back in the 1880's when my relatives first settled here. Much more fun than staring at out of a heated box by yourself day after day at the same empty food plot.

lakevet

[nonteepical]

sounds like a good season, congratulations! but you'll have to work on your hunting skill set so you can get one of those very large bucks, next year they'll be a year older, wiser and very, very large

[Musky Buck]

Vet 50% a little low, state ave. is 38% so you've been high % over the years.

[lakevet]

Thanks it was good.

Those bucks may or may not survive the winter/wolves/poachers/baiters/archery/rifle season. They need to do that to get to 2012 muzzy season. But there always are a few big ones around!

We don't target very large bucks specifically. We could very easily, but we collectively as a group consistently decided to focus on our heritage and passing that down. Targeting very large bucks specifically is not our family tradition. Helping young and older relatives, or a relative that is a double transplant patient with limited hearing and sight get the best opportunities is our goal. The mature bucks seem to know who has the limited abilities when they exit an area! Doing the "guide treatment" for others is a different kind of satisfaction, esp late season muzzy. But that is why we like muzzleloading party hunting/ buck crosstagging. So we can gift those tags if they do connect more than once . Focusing to increase the big buck harvest would take a different approach to increase our harvest of them. And it would mean lower overall success for deer harvest. Big bucks have enough pressure on them without us putting a focused dent in them. We like to be traditional brown its down, non selective hunters and let the trophy hunters focus on the big ones. That way we do our part for a "balanced herd structure". Our average for fully mature bucks over the years runs about one a year. Last year we got two. The DNR says that they hope to get the percent of mature bucks in the herd up from 4% to only 10% of the herd with all the new experimental regs in the southeast. All these years the percentage of big, very mature bucks in our harvest has been around that 10 % range. And 90% is a mix of other deer of all types. We usually have about 8 to 10 hunters in our group.

Just food for thought.

lakevet

[Musky Buck]

You're starting to lose me some vet, talking skillset etc. 1.5 mile long drives, raise your hand if you own over a section of land ? 1.5 miles is 3 eighties stacked on top length ways. You're saying us stand hunters aren't hunters, we don't sweat enough. areas where we were first etc. ? you setting up shop on every approach in August ? Low deer densities and should've filled out ? You could easily target big bucks. Since the state is not covered with public land, and the dairy farmer got wiped out, no 1 could afford these large tracts of land, seems you choose not to buy private land, so it got divided up so it is what it is, I'd love to hunt like it was 1880, we all would, you have 32 days with a gun in your hand, how about the first 30 days you guys brown down and the last 2 target the big easy to find bucks, doesn't mean you have to pull the trigger ? I understand some where you're coming from but if you like kinda the old fashioned way you should be clamoring for you either rifle or muzzy not both. Just a bit lost.

[lakevet]

Vet 50% a little low, state ave. is 38% so you've been high % over the years.

Musky,

Minnesota statewide muzzleloader success peaked at 47.4% in 2005.

Since then it has been dropping.

2006 was 39.6%,

2007 was 28.2%,

2008 was 13.4%

2009 was 11.3 %.

Actual deer harvested peaked in 2005 at 15,421.

Then steadily dropped from there.

2006 was 13,507

2007 was 12,138

2008 was 9,572

2009 was 7,929 deer........ about half of harvest just a few years previous in 2005, even though the muzzleloader hunter numbers went thru the roof during that time.

I don't have 2010 or 2011 numbers handy. I want to say 2010 was about 17% but not sure. Anyone know what 2010 and 2011 success rates and total harvest for muzzleloaders were?

As time goes on have more hunters and less success and lower harvest. And muzzy youth in parts of southwest MN can't shoot an antlerless but shotgun kids can........Muzzleloading season now is a totally different animal than it originally was intended to be. Hope they don't do any more brilliant changes to the season. Like having muzzy kids have to do apr on top of no antlerless allowed. Seems incredulous they would ever do that, but who would ever think the DNR would ban a muzzleloader only kid from shooting a doe, but let a scoped, rifled barrel auto shotgun toting kid shoot a doe in the same location earlier that year? The DNR did this year!

Before the present era of buying muzzleloader licenses "at will" by anyone, success averaged closer to 40%. But the season back then was a very small number of dedicated hardcores that gave up regular firearms season entirely, as was required by law, to experience the muzzleloader season. They had almost virtually unlimited access to private property statewide. Actually many people thought this group was a little crazy giving up the "rut hunt". Now a lot of people hunting muzzy as their last option, because they were not successful via archery or rifle/shotgun and ice fishing is slow/ no ice yet.

Yes, we have done well, thanks to being up north, public land, knowledge and to be honest at least part of the muzzleloader season where hunters are discouraged by beautifully nasty weather and/or low deer numbers/sightings. Or the temptation of good first ice, and a heated fish house. But even if our success was only 10 %, we would still enjoy it a lot and hunt just as hard. And if we had only regular rifle season to hunt.....our family's century long traditional style of deer hunting would be dead due to high density of hunters parked everywhere in stands in our hunting area waiting for deer to move, or have someone do that work for them.

lakevet

[lakevet]

You're starting to lose me some vet, talking skillset etc. 1.5 mile long drives, raise your hand if you own over a section of land ? 1.5 miles is 3 eighties stacked on top length ways. ............... I'd love to hunt like it was 1880, we all would......................I understand some where you're coming from but if you like kinda the old fashioned way you should be clamoring for you either rifle or muzzy not both. Just a bit lost.

As a member of the public, you do in a sense own sections of land. Public land. Everyone can raise a hand on that. But many do not have that in their back yard.

And yes many can't even imagine hunting across Minnesota 1.5 miles of real estate where they have access and not see another hunter.

And you are right, having to choose muzzy or reg firearms, not both, has reduced the opportunity to track a deer 1.5 miles throughout the state, especially on private land. In our hunting area of public land up north you can still in some areas track a deer 1.5 miles without seeing another hunter. Rifle season you would only find a gut pile under a stand at the end of your tracking.

Maybe the question to think about is would you give up the regular firearm season to be able to hunt low hunter density large tracts of land? The answer to that question is in the past about 10,000 of 500,000 said yes. About 490,000 said no. That is how many bought muzzy or regular licenses historically when they had to choose one or the other.

It is an experience that is becoming harder to find without big chunks of money. Vast majority of hunters have not experienced it. Muzzleloader season was a season that initially provided that opportunity and option virtually statewide, but it is becoming more limited in most of the state due to less access for muzzleloaders on private land. There are many reasons, but one is more muzzleloaders competing for prime locations.

The season was originated by those who wanted to hunt like 1880 in the total experience, not just type of weapon used, and it was working nicely for many years as a long term sustainable season. Extremely important was having to choose regular firearms or muzzleloader. This gave everyone the choice and worked to prevent an influx of hunters that would affect the season dynamic. As we all know the DNR decided to increase hunter numbers to 1) try to use muzzleloaders as another deer management tool to reduce high deer populations, 2) respond to pressure to increase opportunity to harvest mature bucks, 3) increase license sales and revenue. It would be great, but don't see the new management at the DNR reversing that anytime soon. Too much revenue involved and a different mindset. Hopefully they will at least give muzzy kids and shotgun kids equal opportunity. Glad we live north a ways.

Just thankful we got another season in using the old ways of tracking and driving deer.

And big bucks are never easy. Just saying that we could easily make choice to switch to targeting big bucks as the main goal, and thus see some kind of increase in the number of big mature bucks we harvested each year. Not saying we would easily pile them up or that I am bragging that we are better hunters.

lakevet

[kc0myy]

the old fashioned way you should be clamoring for you either rifle or muzzy not both. Just a bit lost.

AMEN

[Musky Buck]

I agree with it's not really hunter numbers it's license sales and dollars, muzzleloader is not a way to help control deer numbers or we'd have scopes on them, farmers would be begging us to hunt their land, Lou would say even with muzzy numbers higher it's still overall a 4-6% of the total harvest. Gun season controls the numbers and they are controlled in most areas, so muzzy should be dropped if it's a way to control venison numbers. Not many people back in the day could even find or figure out the muzzleloader itself, it was tough to hunt that season when no 1 in your family does so and as a 13 or 14 year old you had to have an adult/parent with you, it was hard enough learning to use a deer rifle as a youth with a scope and be on target consistently vs. open sight blackpowder back in the December finger numbing cold. I couldn't buy my own guns at 12,13,14,15 years of age. One last thing is you'd get few if any deer in my area if you hunted the way you do, there's a good reason it was zone 4, it's farmland, much less cover and it is dominated where I'm at by thick red willow and grass, you're not making a stalk or slipping through that stuff and there's often a foot of water/mud you're dealing with and to drive it would mean your season is over, you scent there bedding ground up, disturb it, even get a few shots off lets say and it's game over until next year, they are not coming back, every chunk of land big or small that can hold a deer has field next to it, all the way around it, and most sections are 1 mile by 1 mile and roads all the way around it, when those deer blow out of your drive they have a mile or more to run through the open and they're not coming back, they're finding the thickest quietest place elsewhere so yes you can do 1 good drive, then game over. Just the difference in the areas we hunt. I do and always will target larger bucks, I have to, I enjoy watching the rest, there's no shortage of people in my area taking antlerless, someone must be or our deer numbers wouldn't be as low as they are now, shooting a small buck in my area would be the easiest deer to take and hunting alone, I don't want to be done right away nearly each year, I only have ladder stands to hunt and the deer figure those out so I often sit by a tree, stump, escape type deer trail, where I think a big buck may be cruising, I try unorthodox methods at times to cross paths with 1, I may not have a mature buck within miles of me at times, but that's ok, you hit it right with the increase "opportunity" to take a mature buck by muzzy, we know there's not a great amount of mature bucks taken by muzzleloader, a bit unclear about muzzy vs shotgun kids though, how many kids are forgoing the shotgun season to just muzzy hunt, I know of none ? I don't know a single kid who muzzy hunts and I teach firearm safety/gun safety courses and I also know many kids who'd rather go scopeless so am I missing the boat on that one?