Forgive my ignorance but I have a ? on Assault guns

[mabr]

Was in the local FF the other day and seen the sign that you had to have a special license to purchase! When the heck did this take place. It was just a semi automatic rifle, yeah they had larger clips but what the he--. Did this happen during my 5 year absence from MN. Or am i just not keeping up with when I should be

[jabug]

since they are considered an assault rifle and not a hunting rifle they are treated like a pistol when you go to purchase one need a permit to carry or permit to purchase to get one. just another stupid govt rule if you ask me

[picksbigwagon]

I believe (I am not an expert) that it has more to do with certain items found on that rifle then simply that it looks "assault-ish"....Flash hider, bayonet lug, etc. When I bought my AR15 5 years ago, it had a bull barrel on it, no flash hider or bayonet lug and I did not need permit to purchase. Not sure if those regulations changed in MN, but I cringe every time I hear them referred to as Assault Rifles.....

[LMITOUT]

I don't know when it changed, but here is the state statute which defines when a permit is required for purchase and I've highlighted the part that is the "catchall" for AR style rifles.

I ran into the same thing a few years ago when I bought a Rock River AR...ordered it online and had it transferred to a FFL only to find out I needed the permit to purchase when I arrived to pick it up. It didn't make sense to me either as I viewed it as just another semi-auto rifle and the permit is called a "permit to purchase a handgun", so I had no reason to believe that anything over and above was required to buy this rifle. So, about a week or so later I had my permit and finalized the transaction.

Subd. 7.Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon. "Semiautomatic military-style assault weapon" means:

(1) any of the following firearms:

(i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK-47) semiautomatic rifle type;

(ii) Beretta AR-70 and BM-59 semiautomatic rifle types;

(iii) Colt AR-15 semiautomatic rifle type;

(iv) Daewoo Max-1 and Max-2 semiautomatic rifle types;

(v) Famas MAS semiautomatic rifle type;

(vi) Fabrique Nationale FN-LAR and FN-FNC semiautomatic rifle types;

(vii) Galil semiautomatic rifle type;

(viii) Heckler & Koch HK-91, HK-93, and HK-94 semiautomatic rifle types;

(ix) Ingram MAC-10 and MAC-11 semiautomatic pistol and carbine types;

(x) Intratec TEC-9 semiautomatic pistol type;

(xi) Sigarms SIG 550SP and SIG 551SP semiautomatic rifle types;

(xii) SKS with detachable magazine semiautomatic rifle type;

(xiii) Steyr AUG semiautomatic rifle type;

(xiv) Street Sweeper and Striker-12 revolving-cylinder shotgun types;

(xv) USAS-12 semiautomatic shotgun type;

(xvi) Uzi semiautomatic pistol and carbine types; or

(xvii) Valmet M76 and M78 semiautomatic rifle types;

[LMITOUT]

I cringe every time I hear them referred to as Assault Rifles.....

Same here. Many people believe that "AR" is short for Assault Rifle, but it is actually derived from the name ArmaLite...the company that designed this type of rifle over 50 years ago. I, too, thought that was what "AR" meant until just a few years ago when I started looking into these types of firearms.

[SmilinBob]

Its another antiquated state law in MN, and the industry is trying to change the perception and we are asking you start calling them MSR's or modern sporting rifles. Please contact your elected officials and ask them to do away with the permit system in MN. We still run background checks so it is redundant and county sheriffs are profiting by collecting $100 for you to exercise your 2nd amendment right, most sheriffs are elected, remind them of this come election time.

[picksbigwagon]

Smiling Bob, I have to ask, why would I pay the sherriff 100 bucks to go and buy an AR? permit to purchase is free, at least the last time I went in to get one

[SmilinBob]

Sorry, got ahead of myself there, the $100 is for the permit to carry a pistol. You're right, permit to purchase is free.

[Ufatz]

A couple thoughts on this subject. Perhaps one of the reasons for the MN statute is to allow proper authorities to get a handle on type and number of weapons being sold. Reason: if you travel int TX,AZ,NM etc. you become aware of the volume of these weapong in cirulation and WHERE many of them end up. I'm sure you've read reports on the recent "hauls" of these weapons along the border and on the other side and the discovery of WHERE they originated.

Then take a look at weapons listed in statute. In all honesty, do any of them appeal to you as a hunting weapon? Any off the rack bolt,pump or semi-auto Remington (insert your favorite brand) rifle is a more appropriate hunting rifle.

The makers and sellers of these weapons know precisely where there market is: it is in the guy who thinks he's a special op's commando...or may be one some day or who is looking forward to defending his home from the invading foreign hordes waiting at our borders. They are "cool". They are "macho"...they scare h--- out of non shooter/hunters. Gimme a tricked out bad truck, a big Rottweiler with chain collar and my AR and some fatiges and I am MAIN MEAN!! LOL.

I don't like invasive regulations much either you guys but maybe we should consider what provoked some of them. And although many of you won't agree with me, the "shooting appliances" that are sold to sportsmen today are ugly beyond words, cheaply built to provide maximum profit and as graceful and attractive as a rhino on roller skates. Buy them if you must boys, but remember, the makers snicker and hoot and howl all the way to the bank.

There, now I'm done.

[Neighbor_guy]

Some People here are geting a little "black helicopter" on the bit.

The reason and the only reason you have to have a purchase or carry permit to buy an "AR" style rifle is because of the lower. The lower is considered a "pistol" in the eyes of the gov. Once you have that lower, you can configure the rifle in dozens of different ways, calibers, pistol , carbine, whatever. No two rifles are identical.

A TC contender or encore is the same way. You may want to buy a Encore rifle in .270. But because your new toy can be easily converted to a pistol that shoots .308, you must have a purchase or carry permit to do it.

SKS, AK's over the counter. AR's permit.

[picksbigwagon]

Never thought about it being a pistol angle before Neighbor guy.......an encore 308 pistol sounds like something to add to the list (for my safe that is)

[TooTallTom]

Some People here are geting a little "black helicopter" on the bit.

The reason and the only reason you have to have a purchase or carry permit to buy an "AR" style rifle is because of the lower. The lower is considered a "pistol" in the eyes of the gov. Once you have that lower, you can configure the rifle in dozens of different ways, calibers, pistol , carbine, whatever. No two rifles are identical.

A TC contender or encore is the same way. You may want to buy a Encore rifle in .270. But because your new toy can be easily converted to a pistol that shoots .308, you must have a purchase or carry permit to do it.

SKS, AK's over the counter. AR's permit.

I am pretty sure that what I have bolded above is not correct. IIRC, There are dedicated AR-pistol lowers, as well as dedicated Encore-pistol receivers, which are designated as pistols at the factory. These are the only lowers or receivers of their respective lines/ brands/ styles/ what-have-you that are legally allowed to be configured as pistols. I believe that AR or Encore pistols can be configured as rifles, but not the other way around.

[TooTallTom]

A couple thoughts on this subject. Perhaps one of the reasons for the MN statute is to allow proper authorities to get a handle on type and number of weapons being sold.

The permit to purchase a pistol is not tied to any specific firearm. It does have to be renewed (if you choose and qualify) annually. I keep my permit open just in case I happen across something I like/ want/ can afford at the moment. I haven't purchased a pistol in probably three years or so, and I haven't ever purchased an "assault" rifle.

I think the reason for the permit is just to provide another (more obvious, possibly unnecessary) check on the person purchasing the firearm. I guess it's one more thing to have to do, and you can make a point about gov't intrusion, etc. Ultimately, I don't think the requirement is too burdensome and it really doesn't bother me all that much.

[Ufatz]

To clarify: I was not addressing the pistol angle. Simply pointing out that the reason for the MN statute might very well be to help Feds. get a handle on WHO is buying that type weapon because so many of them are ending up in Mexico and along the border and even other parts of the world, all of American origin. Item: one dealer in GA sold a few dozen AR's to ONE GUY on several visits in ONE month. Guess where they ended up?

Me "black helicopters"...?? No No. Ha Ha. The young guys running around in camo carrying "assault style" weapons and wearing camo fatigues while they play "Special Ops Guy" are the ones seeing the black helicopters.

All my helicopters are blue and gold and say Alaska State Troopers on them!

At ease men.

[TooTallTom]

Ufatz, I suppose the permit to purchase could help in tracking who has been qualified to buy pistols or "assault" rifles, but (in MN at least) it does nothing to track who is actually buying those firearms or in what numbers. That's what I was getting at when I mentioned that, while I've had a valid permit nearly the entire time, I haven't purchased a pistol in a few years and I haven't ever bought an "assault" rifle. (I guess I just don't have what it takes to play "Special Ops Guy." )

And I agree, pointing out that something may be done to help the Federal Government to keep track of some activity or product is quite a long ways from scanning the sky for black helicopters. Besides, everyone knows those helicopters won't be black, they'll be painted up in the colors of the companies that have contracted with the government to do the dirty work.

[Neighbor_guy]

I am pretty sure that what I have bolded above is not correct. IIRC, There are dedicated AR-pistol lowers, as well as dedicated Encore-pistol receivers, which are designated as pistols at the factory. These are the only lowers or receivers of their respective lines/ brands/ styles/ what-have-you that are legally allowed to be configured as pistols. I believe that AR or Encore pistols can be configured as rifles, but not the other way around.

Yes, there are "AR" lowers that come from the factory as pistols. There are also Encores and Contenders that come from the factory as pistols. But AR lowers can be converted will a little bit of effort, and ALL Encore and Contenders can be converted to pistols. That is part of what makes them what they are. One action = lots of guns.

Its just a matter of pins on the AR. The upper comes off, the but stock comes off, a pistol tube goes on (spring/plunger) and two pins for the dedicated pistol upper and you have a .223 pistol. With a couple of minor modifications.

The Encore/Contender is a matter of removing the barrel, and swaping the grip and stock. Pistol to rifle to shotgun to muzzle loader and back again.

It all comes down to the lower. A quick check will tell the tail. An "AR" rifle has a serial number on the dreciever... but nothing on the upper, a caliber designation on the barrel, but that is it. So the lower is registered.... as a pistol?.?.?

It's a pain in the wazzoo, but it is what it is, contenders, encores, "ar"s are in the eye's of the gov. pistols that can be easily modified from their original configuration to multiple calibers, pistols, foregrips, removable magazines, blah, blah, blah....

I am not a mall ninja or anything. Just happen to be one of those guys who finds a "Modern Sporting Rifle" to be one of the best Coyote guns ever made. My gun shop guy explained it all, and gave the comparison to the encore/contender. I cant take credit for that one.

[TooTallTom]

I know that, physically, changing from rifle to pistol is a pretty simple procedure with any of the guns you mentioned. I'm talking about legally. I'm pretty sure that, without more paperwork (if at all), none of these guns that leaves the factory as a legal rifle lower/ reciever/ whatever can be converted to a pistol. If you could just change them around whenever you pleased, why would any of them leave the factory designated as rifles or pisols?

I know that none of them (even the legal pistols) can be given a stock with a pistol-length barrel without the paperwork to register it as a short-barrelled rifle.

I spent some time with google and came up with this letter from ATF which basically states that legal pistols can be converted to rifles and back, but legal rifles CANNOT be converted to pistols.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

[picksbigwagon]

Okay, strictly hypothetical question here, BUT, could I convert an AR-10 to a pistol version in .308? It has been a while since I searched the "Evil Black" rifle market and web pages. Maybe even get a AR-10 upper in pistol format in a 308 with maybe a 12" barrel? For all I know they might already be out there.....Hmmmmmmmm........12" bull barrel with a muzzle break, 20 round mag.....

[Farley]

In all honesty, do any of them appeal to you as a hunting weapon? Any off the rack bolt,pump or semi-auto Remington (insert your favorite brand) rifle is a more appropriate hunting rifle.

Yes the Ar-15 style platform appeals to me as a hunter. i dont think any of remmingtons semi-autos are as accurate as an Ar-15, or as customizable. Also dont forget about the target shooting market out there, they're not just for hunters.

[TooTallTom]

picksbigwagon, you can have an AR-10 PISTOL that you also have a rifle setup for, but you cannot have an AR-10 RIFLE that you have a pistol setup for.

I have no idea if someone like DPMS makes any AR-10 lowers designated as pistols, but I'm sure they'd let you know if they do. I have seen AR-15 PISTOL lowers that actually have "PISTOL" etched in the lower near the serial number. That's what you'd need in AR-10 to have the legal ability to swap from .308 pistol to rifle and back.

Also, keep in mind that if you have the pistol barrel on the lower, the stock cannot be attached. (Or maybe even in the same proximity, I'm not sure what all that was about in the ATF letter.) I also think that, if you have the long barrel on, you would be prudent to attach the stock as well, just to be on the safe side. If you get the parts mixed up (or maybe just have them handy, depending on the meaning of the letter) and create a short-barrelled rifle, you've just committed a federal firearms crime.

[picksbigwagon]

Yeah, after looking last night, I found that it is possible to do an AR-10 pistol set up in 308. lots of other things on the top of the money list right now, but it did get added

[Ufatz]

Man, you guys are all too technically advanced for me! Reckon I'll just take my old flintlock amd saunter off into the woods and do what I can to stay out of your field of fire.

Have fun gang.....lots of interesting stuff here.

[TooTallTom]

Ufatz, I was just looking at a Howdah Hunter 20 gauge pistol (double barrels!) in the Cabela's catalog. I think that would be a pretty unique grouse gun.

[carpshooterdeluxe]

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[TooTallTom]

That first letter seems to say that ANY receiver can be either a rifle or pistol, depending upon how it's first configured. But that, if it's first made into a rifle, that receiver cannot later be made into a pistol.

I guess now it's a lot less clear. Which makes me more comfortable, given my experiences of the Federal Government.