Fully Automatic Weapons

[The Grebe]

I always thought that having a fully automatic weapon, or a shotgun with a barrel shorter then 18 inches was illegal? does anyone out there know for sure? If it is illegal, are there any exceptions? Just wondering?

[carpshooterdeluxe]

Full-auto's registered before x/x/1986 are legal to own and transfer by private individuals as long as the proper paperwork is done.

Short barreled rifles (under 16") and short barreled shotguns (under 18") are legal to own as well if you follow the proper procedures. These are not all that hard to buy.

Tons of information about these on forums like thehighroad, shotgunworld, arfcom, etc.

[The Grebe]

Thanks for answering, I was just wondering...seen an episode of Anthony Bordains "No Reservations" and he was at Ted Nugents place and they had all kinda automatic and short barreled fire power. Everything from M-60 machine guns to street sweepers and I was thinking to myself, "Huh?"

[Tator2k]

Each state can also have stricter laws than the Federal ones. Minnesota is very tough but state such as Mich, where Ted's ranch is only require the Federal licensing. Basically you would need a Class 3 license per firearm ($200 'tax' each) and/or an SBR Form (Short Barreled Rifle) or Destructive Devices Form (Shotguns).

In this state it's a bit harder as most cities or counties will only license C&R list items.

[The Grebe]

I don't have any need for any fully automatic, or short barreled stuff, I have a hard enough time finding free time to use my poor old shotguns!

[Farley]

That and you go through ammo like you wouldnt believe.

[RumRiverRat]

SBR's and SBS's are legal in MN.

Just need the proper forms and tax stamps.

[Moose-Hunter]

SBR's and SBS's are legal in MN.

Just need the proper forms and tax stamps.

SBR's... Yes, with the proper forms and taxes paid. SBS's... Just plain no. Minnesota does not allow them. Period. Unless there is something I missed when I had my eye on building one.

[Tator2k]

Correct, SBS are considered 'destructive devices' and are not allowed. Street Sweepers fall under this category.

[Froggy4371]

Well I have personally seen (about 2 years ago) three people who own SBS's and they all had paperwork for them. I know for sure there is a way to have one. It is all TAXES for owning one.

Just call the ATF. They can give you the skinny on it.

Froggy

[Moose-Hunter]

Well I have personally seen (about 2 years ago) three people who own SBS's and they all had paperwork for them. I know for sure there is a way to have one. It is all TAXES for owning one.

Just call the ATF. They can give you the skinny on it.

Froggy

Just got off the phone with the local branch of the BATFE... No dice. I could call West Virginia or Georgia but I fear I'd get the same answer.

I'm curious as to what paperwork they had. Under the NFA, they can be either a SBS, AOW or even a DD (destructive device)... I wonder how these were placed on the registry.

As I'd really like to own one for home protection, where in Minnesota Statute 609.67 allows the common "Joe" to own or manufacture a SBS? Were these guys LEO, .MIL, Nat. Guard, dealers or manufacturers?

Not trying to be a jerk. I'd just really like to LEGALLY own one.

ETA: I'm on the case!! I have a call in to a NFA specialist in West Virginia. We'll soon see if Moose-Hunter is looking for a new toy. Or.... If I'll just continue to grouse about the heat.

[Ufatz]

Be interesting to learn what you are told.

But if you can't have your very own full auto for home protection get something just as effective.

A model 500 Mossberg .20 gauge youth model with no plug. Magazine loaded with #4 shot and slug, #4 shot and slug, #4 shot and slug......or slug and buckshot (hard to find in .20)

From one side of your living room to the other think what THAT will do to an evil-doer.

Set up a man target 15-feet away and let 'r rip and you'll see what I mean!

Keep us posted though.

[Farley]

Not sure if it falls within this language or not:

(3) persons possessing machine guns or short-barreled shotguns which, although designed as weapons, have been determined by the superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or the superintendent's delegate by reason of the date of manufacture, value, design or other characteristics to be primarily collector's items, relics, museum pieces or objects of curiosity, ornaments or keepsakes, and are not likely to be used as weapons;

Funny nothing in the statute says anything about a person being able to file a Form 4 with the BATF in order to purchase an MG or SBS? Does that mean we cant have them period?

[Tator2k]

I've only seen a few C&R 'full auto' weapon be approved for private collectors in my years talking and working with local Law Enforcement.

Typically it's been original BARs and Tommy-guns for collection but shootable.

Besides Federal Tax Forms, local agencies can add what ever tax or fee that want if they are going to approve it. I've heard upwards of $1000 or more on an original collector's grade Thompson.

I personally don't know anyone not LE, Military, Dealer or Manufacturer that owns an SBS or other DD.

Why isn't an 18" barrel on a shotgun short enough for you?

[RumRiverRat]

Correct, SBS are considered 'destructive devices' and are not allowed. Street Sweepers fall under this category.

Having personally fired a Double Barrel SBS made by Orion Arms in Lino Lakes, I will disagree with you.

They are an 07 FFL & 02 SOT, the owner has an impressive NFA collection.

The average Joe can get his 07 FFL and 02 SOT as long as you meet the requirements of the ATF.

So I say again, with the proper paper work and tax stamps SBS's and SBR's are legal.

[Tator2k]

Read below... That makes you a 'dealer' or 'manufacturer'

[RumRiverRat]

Read below... That makes you a 'dealer' or 'manufacturer'

Your point is?

You made a blanket statement that SBS's are not allowed.

As a 07 FFL and 02 SOT you can manufacture and own SBS's in the State of MN.

So your blanket statement is false.

[Tator2k]

Ave. Joe off the street CAN NOT LEGALLY own one in this state. PERIOD. There is not one agency in this state that will sign off on the purchase if you're not a licensed dealer or manufacturer.

It's very much a blanket statement for 99.99% of individuals in this state.

[LMITOUT]

I don't believe a SBS can be owned in MN unless it is a relic or collector's item. Farley posted the statute which addresses a SBS which is a Title II firearm.

Then there is this provision that covers dealers...but specific dealers:

(5) dealers and manufacturers who are federally licensed to buy and sell, or manufacture machine guns or short-barreled shotguns and who either use the machine guns or short-barreled shotguns in peace officer training under courses approved by the Board of Peace Officer Standards and Training, or are engaged in the sale of machine guns or short-barreled shotguns to federal and state agencies or political subdivisions;

[LMITOUT]

According to state statute this is the definition of a SBS:

© "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length less than 26 inches.

What happens if it has a folding stock? What is considered the "overall length" then? Or is all dependent on the barrel length (<18").

[RumRiverRat]

Ave. Joe off the street CAN NOT LEGALLY own one in this state. PERIOD. There is not one agency in this state that will sign off on the purchase if you're not a licensed dealer or manufacturer.

It's very much a blanket statement for 99.99% of individuals in this state.

No use arguing with someone that does understand the simple concept that if one word in a statement is false the whole statement is false.

Stating SBS's are not allowed in MN is false.

End of story.

[RumRiverRat]

I don't believe a SBS can be owned in MN unless it is a relic or collector's item. Farley posted the statute which addresses a SBS which is a Title II firearm.

Then there is this provision that covers dealers...but specific dealers:

(5) dealers and manufacturers who are federally licensed to buy and sell, or manufacture machine guns or short-barreled shotguns and who either use the machine guns or short-barreled shotguns in peace officer training under courses approved by the Board of Peace Officer Standards and Training, or are engaged in the sale of machine guns or short-barreled shotguns to federal and state agencies or political subdivisions;

The most common way to own Machineguns and SBS's in MN is by making what is called a POST Sample. POST Samples are not transferable. You must be a 07 FFL and 02 SOT to manufacture POST samples.

[RumRiverRat]

According to state statute this is the definition of a SBS:

© "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length less than 26 inches.

What happens if it has a folding stock? What is considered the "overall length" then? Or is all dependent on the barrel length (<18").

The BATFE defines it this way:

"For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked."