Future of the WCHA

[cbrooks]

couple of good articles out of the GF Herald speculating the future of the WCHA with Minnesota and Wisconsin leaving.

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=88176

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=88179

[cbrooks]

According to the first article, It sounds like if Notre Dame join the WCHA then UND, CC, Denver won't be looking for a new conference. I can't imagine UND not playing in the WCHA.

[scsavre]

Thanks big 10. If you were a person id punch you in the face.

What's the reason for such importense on notre dame. Miami is looking like the long term real deal, is notre dame here to stay as a top team. Are they ready to come back to the wcha or ready to enter the big 10. I'm just glad mn and wis are being used to build programs at penn state and ohio state. We better be getting some good bribes.

[OnAFly]

The future of the WCHA includes me watching a whole lot less of it. Really, I just liked watching the rivalries. Now they mean nothing with the Gophers in a different conference. This feels like the beginning of the end of college hockey.

[cbrooks]

]

What's the reason for such importense on notre dame.

Paragraph taken from Schlossman blog

"This person said that when business was conducted in the WCHA, often times, there was a distinct divide in the voting. The larger schools wanted to invest and spend money to make improvements and try new things in the league. The smaller schools had budget concerns and wanted to/needed to save money."

The WCHA is turning into a league(water down league) with the smaller schools interest of cutting cost and not making the improvements that the bigger schools want said in the paragraph above. Notre Dame is a larger school along with Miami. Where those two schools go will make an impact on the WCHA and much of college hockey.

Have to agree with OnAfly. The loss of some of the rilvaries wll hurt the interest of the college game.

We all knew that Big Ten was gonna hurt some of the smaller schools. As for UND talking of leaving the WCHA came out of left field for me. There still alot of unanswered questions and circumstances to happen yet for that to happen.

[Bran32]

I don't see how they keep saying the small schools do not want to spen any money when BSU (4300) seats and UMD (6700) seats just got brand new arenas that will hold more people than Miami's new arena (3900) seats, and Notre Dame's WHOPPING (2700) seats and SCSU is doing some major renovation to their arena which already holds 5300 people!! To me it is just like what is going on in college football with the new big 10 (12) and the pac 12!! As if the lockouts weren't enough!! Just another way to ruin sports! It's ok though maybe UND, DU, CC, UNO, are just wanting out so that they do not have to play that huge school we all know as the defending champs!!!! I say GO BULLDOGS

[solbes]

Yeah, but UMD has been included in some of these talks as well. See article from Pates below. This article/blog mentioned 8 schools with Duluth and Western Michigan included along with the previously mentioned UND, Denver, CC, UNO, Notre Dame, and Miami.

http://rinkandrun.areavoices.com/2011/07/05/minnesota-duluth-a-super-conference-invitee/

I still do not like this one bit. Mainly I dislike what will become of the mess of smaller schools and their changed financial landscape AND resulting level of competetion.

Best thing would be for Miami and Notre Dame to join WCHA. CCHA will still have to figure something out, but this will keep it as similar to the previous league as possible.

[scsavre]

anyone who doesnt think the gophs leaving would hurt.

Heres a stat for you. Until last season not only was gopher hockey the most profitable in NCAA hockey, they actually made more money then the rest of the WCHA combined. That is just crazy. That money shrunk last year, but they still made over 3 times more money then the 2nd earner in the WCHA, the Sioux. With shared revenues and ticket sales, the WCHA will be taking a huge blow.

The whole thing sucks. in 10 years will small schools even have hockey.

Its gonna be real cool when its USC vs Ohio state in hockey. stupid

[mulefarm]

Where does Wis rank in money earned? I would think they would be close to the gophers.

[scsavre]

No body is even close. They are 3rd from what I remember. They were discussing this on the radio on friday or saturday. I know the badgers used to be second but the sioux have since passed them up

[Bear55]

Sounds like this might happen, wow never thought the WCHA would be in trouble. You have to feel bad for the teams left behind, UMD kind of won their way into the new conference last year.

I kind of wish everyone would just calm down and think this through before going all Super Conference on everyone else.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/209049/group/Sports/

[cbrooks]

Jeez. Not good for college hockey as a whole. Best of luck to the remaining WCHA & CCHA hockey programs. Is it all about money? I hope no hockey program gets drop from this...thats the wrost case scenio.

After the superleague starts up what will happen to the remaining CCHA and WCHA teams, assuming they combine leagues? Maybe Alabama Huntsville will find a home conference in this mess. I'm hoping none of this hurts any schools hockey programs. It sounds like wedsday next week is the announcement. I'm expecting Notre Dame and Western Mich will be apart of the new league.

[fishing tech]

Herbie is rolling in his grave. It is one thing to have money, but greed p!ssess me off. The only good that might come out of it would be more games on tv.

[scsavre]

I honestly see more greed out of the remaining WCHA schools then the big 10 schools. Everyone says the big 10 schools are going for money. I dont know if that is the case or not. I think the big 10 might just be trying to grow the big 10 and grow Penn and OH. I really dont think the Gophs were forced to join in hopes of more money. Obviously the big 10 wants all its schools playing under its banner in every sport.

The WCHA teams are going for money, they see the loss of the gophers and they need to make it up. I dont see any other reason. The WCHA is still stacked, Denver, CC, UND, UMD, those are 4 of the top10 teams in the NCAA most years. Why else would they be looking to move around.

Blame the Big 10 for starting this mess, but if small schools go under its the fault of UMD, UND, Denver etc. They are the ones folding the leagues. Even without the Gophs and Wis the WCHA is the best Conference.

[Bran32]

Once again I ask why Western Michigan and UNO in this "super conference" with no history at all, I mean not one frozen four appearance and only 2 appearances each for Miami and Notre Dame with no NC's! I want to see this 6 or 8 team conference get this tv deal I keep hearing about! I grew up in Colorado and if the Avalanche are not winning you don't even hear about hockey down there but maybe once or twice a month and that's only if DU is playing great nothing about CC! So I truly do not believe that Colorado, Indiana, and Ohio are real hockey hot beds for a new "runaway from the wcha the sky is falling without UM and UW" conference network!! Even though I really like UMD I hope this conference falls flat on its face Sorry guys but this whole super conference [PoorWordUsage] has got me irked!!

[solbes]

And college hockey takes a huge step backward...I don't know who to blame, and I don't know how we got to this place. There were HUGE implications when 5 of the biggest money draws left the CCHA and WCHA. I think think the loss of Mich and Mich State were much bigger to the CCHA than the Gophers and Badgers were to the WCHA. So it was almost a foregone conclusion that Miami and Notre Dame were gonna leave. I know that Gopher's and Badger's were huge money draws to the WCHA, but I feel like the resultant WCHA was strong enough to stand on it's own.

I can understand why UND and DU would be upset with the loss of Goldy and Bucky. But once they decided they needed to also bail, you were left with a WCHA conference that was just a shell of what it was. The top 4 programs in size and strength left a pretty big void in both dollars lost and watered down competition. I'm not saying CC, UNO, and UMD are also not to blame because they are, but how could they not also jump when the top 4 were gone? If any of them said no, they would have been replaced by one of the other WCHA teams and the end result would have been the same.

Here's where it starts to look bleak. In the new conference, not only do you have the loss of regional rivalries (UMD vs MTU, UND vs SCSU, etc), but you have much further to travel. I used to be able to watch Duluth play conference games in Mankato, Minneapolis, Saint Cloud, Wisconsin in under 3 hour drive. Here's how far it is to see them play our new opponents: Miami (13), Notre Dame (10), Western Michigan (10). I hope these schools get comfy buses, because that's where they are going to be spending a lot of time. Also Notre Dame and Miami both have small arenas, so that's kind of lame. Bemidji and Saint Cloud have bigger and better facilities and they just put up the dollars to make it so. Also, so much for the best tourney in college hockey too, the Final 5 is going to be really lame now. IF it is hosted at the X, the only regional draws will be UND and UMD. And finally so much for the great regional rivalries, Amsoil arena is gonna draw much less for non-conference SCSU, Bemidji, or Mankato games.

And on to the worst part...The remaining 5 schools each in the WCHA and CCHA no longer are large enough to get an auto bid, so they have no other option but to combine. I would think they try to set it up as 2 divisions. Maybe play 2/3 or 3/4 games against your division so that long distance travel is reduced. Also now you have 2 teams requiring flights, which is no big deal for a rich program like the Gophers or Sioux, but is a big deal for MTU or LSSU. So I'm not sure where that leaves the Alaska programs; in trouble I think. Also the resultant competition level just got carpet bombed. Saint Cloud and Bemidji will probably be the new powerhouse teams. Here's the rest of that list: Mankato, MTU, Alaska Anch, Ferris State, Bowling Green, Northern Michigan, Alaska Fairbanks, and Lake Superior State. Ouch. This is pure [PoorWordUsage], can't believe how much [PoorWordUsage] it is!

I think college hockey added 1 program, and in the after shocks we will lose 3-5. I really hope I'm wrong on this. Rant over, but I don't feel any better.

[solbes]

With my rant over, I'm moving on to speculation and the future. Western Michigan is apparently out of the picture. Notre Dame is still not official, although I would be really surprised that they would move this quickly if the Irish were not un-officially "In". So that leaves 1-2 openings. 6 teams is not enough to keep interest levels high. Saint Cloud would be the obvious choice in my eyes. Good program, good facility that has been upgraded, and centrally located vs the other teams. Next on the list gets tougher, but I think the Irish have to be in the plans, right?

There has to be a TV contract in this dealio. Three choices there, CBS college sports, ESPNU, or Versus. I have to admit, that part might be cool. If I could see various teams playing, see more UMD, and less of one team only like the Gophers.

And what are they going to name this conference? Can't take credit for this clip, but thought it was funny so I'm posting anyway:

[Shorelunch]

In all honesty, I don't get the Notre Dame appeal. Their program bleeds money and they have only had a few good teams.

Keeping WMU in the CCHA may save that conference. I think that the following should happen:

Move Northern Michigan to the WCHA and have the CCHA add Huntsville. Then keep the leagues at 6 a piece. They could really stick it to a new Super Conference or B1G conference team trying to get in to the NCAA Tourney with their auto-bids.

New WCHA: SCSU, BSU, MSUM, AA, MTU and NMU.

New CCHA: AH, WMU, BG, FSU, AF, LSSU

[scsavre]

I still don't see any reason for this new conference. It is gonna be worse then what's left of the wcha. Attendence will be worse. The end of the year tourny will be worse. The rivalries will be worse. I am doubting any big tv deal since und might be the only school that could have a big enough tv following and that is questionable. Even if you got on cbs or something. That would be just a few games a year. And honestly I know we like playing cc and denver, but that isn't going to make any money. Next to nobody in those towns watches those teams at all. Someone on here described the lack of interest on here durring the final 5 last year. Said he hasn't missed a game in 15 yrs or somethin,but there are very few fans.

I don't see how uno gets grouped in either. They are not exactly a powerhouse. Middle of the pack at best. Umd just made its way to these talks recently, since they won.

I'm not sure what und is thinking, I have a feeling it is them pushing this new league. I just don't see any benefit for them. Maybe its its miami pushing it?

Also don't count on notre dame, if they join it will be breif. They will be in the big 10 soon enough.

[solbes]

I think there exists some pretty clear divisions between the WCHA commisioner and leadership from two WCHA schools in particular. After the B10 conference went down, you had some resentment and the seeds were in place. If not for this division, the easiest and least disruptive option would have been for Miami and possibly ND to join the WCHA, as a 11 or 12 team conference.

I still believe that a TV deal has to be central to this whole situation, as the WCHA didn't have an agreement in place outside of the FSN relationship which only highlighted 3 or 4 teams. After 2 of these teams left, you only had the Rocky Mountain FSN covering any games. That's not going to feed the kitty. CBS college sports always show east coast teams, and some lame ones at that. I would guess ESPNU or Vs shows some interest.

The one thing this super conference does have in common, is that the member teams all have a hockey first mentality. Notre Dame would be the obvious exception. UNO may not be a traditional power house, but they have the pieces in place to become so: facility, committment, and coach.

[scsavre]

Uno has a coach that is retirring. THey do have fans though. Huge attendence, but not tv.

Here you 2010 2011 attendence number

Wisc 290k

Und 235k

Mich 233k which I'm guessing is due to an outdoor game

Gophs 210k

Uno 159k

Cc 147k

Denver 116k

Umd 110k

Cloud 106k

Nh 108k

Bu 96k

Bc 94k

Mich state 91k

Then

18th Oh 65k

24th Miami 54k

29th notre 53k

Some team obviously had more home games so average attendence wuld be moved down.

Nodak would go to 3rd. Umd would move to 9thdenver to 12th.

[solbes]

I'm just trying to get my head around the financial angle of all of this. This has to be one of the main drivers here. Competition wise it makes some sense, though screws the other teams left on the outside.

1) Visiting teams get a piece of the gate reveue, so when we lost Minnesota and Wisconsin, that additional visiting gate revenue dropped for everyone. Mariucci and Kohl Center were by far the largest facilities, with only the Ralph being close. Also consider that some teams only sell out their own facility when the Gophers come to town. Double whammy against non-BTHC teams. By adding Miami and possibly Notre Dame and removing some less crowd drawing teams, ie AA and Tech, would revenues really increase that much? Maybe a tad more but hardly a measurable difference. At least you had some traveling fans from other MN schools, that won't happen anymore. And Miami and ND have very small facilities and don't draw that many crowds anyway, as seen in Scott's numbers above. Probably net loss.

2) F5 tourney was a huge success and revenue generator for all of the WCHA. I think all of the members got a piece of this pie, correct? There is no way the new tourney will generate that kind of interest or money. Probably will be held at the Ralph from now on, as I don't see the X being a sellout anymore. Net loss of super conference over 12 team WCHA, and probably not a small difference.

3) Travel costs. Okay, no more flights to Alaska, or at least very few as non-con games. But the bus rides will be longer, so this somewhat offsets the cost savings. Possibly a net savings with new realignment.

4) External revenue. BTHC will generate cash from their existing TV station. If the new conference does not generate enough interest to get a TV contract, that advantage dies. What other revenue streams would they get as a result, any at all? Maybe a Holiday All MN tourney would now be a solid possibility (ala Beanpot).

Overall seems like a net loss in revenues from just staying together in the WCHA. I must be missing something. Usually you can simply follow the money, but in this case???

[scsavre]

I just don't get it either.

I also highly doubt the other teams will allow the ralph to host the end of year tourny. Hello rotating site tourny.

Here's a rev number for ya.

Gopher hockey $8.1mm with just about $4mm in profit.

Sioux totlal of all sport minus football and baskeball $3.2mm.

I know the gophs number does not include apparel, which although the sioux sell a lot as well, no body would come close to the gophs sales.

I just don't see how his new conference makes more money. On tv I would watch sioux vs cloud or dogs. I could care less to watch those teams play denver or cc.

[cbrooks]

http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2011/07/07_power_play.php

In that article it points out that Notre Dame is going to fulfill its obligation to the CCHA until August then they will make there announcement on there future plans. I think Notre Dame will give the new superleague a better chance of a TV deal which I think is the real driving force here IMO. Notre Dame is the wild card. Also I believe notre Dame is building a new hockey arena. I'm not to sure how big of a following Notre Dame hockey is but that college is a franchise and could sell itself to any hockey fan.

But apart of me is thinking maybe this can be good. A few of you might tell me otherwise. I see BSU or SCSU making the tourney now and maybe a upset in the NCAA regions who knows. It could make hockey a little more interesting in March and Apirl.

[scsavre]

i am thinking that notre dame will end up in hockey east. I still dont see one positive about this league. Why do the Sioux want to break up the WCHA, i cant see one good reason. Your telling me they would rather have Miami and Notre Dame then St Cloud and Bemidji. Cloud and Bemidji both have way better attendance. Bemidji is only getting better too.

I think Miami has a few more good years in them, but honestly I think Ohio State is going to trump Miami after a couple of Big 10 years. Ohio state is the biggest thing in that state and there is no second place.

Notre Dame, they are a every 4 year team at best.

Big 10 I hate you, the new league, I hate you more. Also nothing super about it.