300 yard muzzleloader scopes!!!!!!!!

[lakevet]

Just got a catalog from the big "C" in Nebraska. It has 3 muzzleloader scopes in it.

1# Leupold

"Increase the range of your muzzleloader using Leopold....."

"......easy to use power selector to provide pinpoint accuracy to take down a trophy at distances up to 300

yards."

"Reticle provides ranging and hold-over points you can count on at 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, and 300

yards."

2# Nikon

".....specifically designed for muzzleloader shooting."

".....has hold-over marks for ranges out to 300 yards."

3# Bushnell

"Take the guesswork out of hold-over shots during muzzleloader season...."

"....extended-yardage aiming points enable you to shoot with lethal precision out to 300 yards with a

muzzleloader."

The push of technology is relentless. We Americans are addicted to creating and using cutting edge technology. This is good in many ways, but has drawbacks. Without question, we need self imposed limits as the game populations can't withstand the tech onslaught without restrictions. We actually ban much of the technology that could be used. Flashlights, snares, set guns, silencers, shooting from vehicles (cars, trucks, atvs, dirt bikes, combines, etc), aircraft (don't laugh, there is a group who used planes to drive/haze deer in our area with an airplane til they were caught), night scopes, luring inside fences/enclosures, spears, 2 way radios, etc. Some is old tech and some is new technology that we choose not to allow usage.

While hunters shot deer by torch light with muzzleloaders before flashlights were invented, no one is clamoring for the opportunity to use any form of light to shoot deer at night. It provides an easy standing shot. Teddy Roosevelt shot his first deer by "shining" legally, so why not let muzzleloaders hunt this "traditional" way? Too effective and an enforcement nightmare. But there is a population of exclusively nocturnal trophy bucks that could be tapped into, so why not?

Glad someone had sense to not let the "scopes for all" idea get out of committee.

Lets keep muzzleloading a challenge and a muzzleloader harvested deer, any deer, an accomplishment.

300 yard scopes are not part of that.

Oh, and shut off the technology and get outside with the kids. That's where I am headed!!

lakevet

[flipper]

First of all, I somewhat agree with you about the excess of technology invading our outdoor sports. I was listening to a guy on CCO the other night talking about all the "outdoor apps" for smartphones and how they can tell you where you are and where you need to go yadda yadda yadda.

But on the issue of these scopes, If anybody thinks that shooting something at 300 yards with a muzzleloader is as easy as strapping one of these nifty scopes to your gun and going by the little cross hairs for different ranges they are way wrong. Long range shots with black powder guns are possible, even with some of the advanced peep sights but it requires hours and hours of practice. First off you have to find a load that will shoot very precisely in your gun. You are going to have to have your shots touch at 100 yards to have the kind of accuracy you need to shoot 200 yards plus. Then you need to spend a lot, and I mean a lot, of time practicing at these extreme distances. Cripes sakes a 20 mph wind might move your point of impact 25 inches or more at 200 yards.

I use to say I felt comfortable shooting at 100 yards with my peep sites but with my present day eyes I think 75 yards is as far as I want to shoot at a deer. Maybe if I get to the range a lot before season I would take that 100 yard shot but that is my max. I was hoping to be able to scope my muzzie this fall but just to feel more comfortable that I would have a clean kill. Even with a good scope I would never feel right shooting at something 200 or 300 yards away.

[TooTallTom]

...If anybody thinks that shooting something at 300 yards with a muzzleloader is as easy as strapping one of these nifty scopes to your gun and going by the little cross hairs for different ranges they are way wrong....it requires hours and hours of practice.

That's a big part of the problem, right there. People don't have the inclination to make the time and spend the money to practice, but they think that spending big bucks on fancy gear will make up for that. That's an issue with any kind of activity, but I think it's a pretty big deal when we're talking about taking a life in an efficient manner.

And that's not even beginning on the erosion of the traditional intention of the season.

[Gordie]

300 yard muzzy scopes whats next a auto loading muzzle loader

I wish they would leave it alone

[mrklean]

ha why does everyone call it the Big C? You can call it cabelas on here

[Wanderer]

Because of the C-oronary you get at the check out counter when you just stopped in to get a Rapala or a pack of broadheads. Who put all this other stuff in my basket?

I'm a C-urmudgeon when it comes to scoping muzzle loaders too. Take pride in learning enough woodsmanship so you can get close enough to use a "primitive" weapon. And don't shoot after legal hours just because there's snow on the ground and you can still see - through your scope.

[laker1]

I remember Minnesota's first muzzle loading season and why we were having it. it was called a primitive hunt to go back 100 years and create a challenge. We now have a long rifle season in parts. Lets not create a muzzleloader that is just a single shot rifle. If we do that why even have a muzzleloader season just categorize it as a rifle. Sometimes we just can not leave things alone,and we all look for advantages to get that animal(including me). To bad we just can't learn a little more about its habits and spend some time in the woods. Nothing wrong with having different types of hunts for differant types of people. Also if the deer kill goes up,maybe to high we end up with more restrictions.

[TruthWalleyes]

I'll probably be putting a scope on my muzzle loader this year, and use it during shotgun season, then back to the peep site.

I am not against a scope for muzzle season either. Improved accuracy means better kill percentage..However, some folks will always push the limits of distance and wound deer, i also feel those same folks do it today, but at closer range with open sites.

I just want to see a deer killed with every shot taken, and less wounded to die unharvested.

Deer kill may go up, but i wonder if that is less deer laying dead (Unharvested) from a poor shot.

[lakevet]

I just want to see a deer killed with every shot taken, and less wounded to die unharvested.

That thought could be used to also allow any other additional technology that makes the shot easier with less effort (such as practicing at the range). Muzzleloader wounding rate, as with any weapon, is primarily human error, and always will be. A friend who transitioned from an open sighted 30-30 cause it "wasn't enough" still wounds deer with a scoped 375 H&H mag. Wounding is almost always human error problem.

lakevet

[TruthWalleyes]

That thought could be used to also allow any other additional technology that makes the shot easier with less effort (such as practicing at the range). Muzzleloader wounding rate, as with any weapon, is primarily human error, and always will be. A friend who transitioned from an open sighted 30-30 cause it "wasn't enough" still wounds deer with a scoped 375 H&H mag. Wounding is almost always human error problem.

lakevet

You are correct, in pointing out the obvious...otherwise the poor shot would be intentional. (probably not too many people trying to aim for a lower leg) The biggest human error problem is taking shots that aren't a high percentage, i.e. sprinting deer, or shooting further than you've tested at the range. Better decision making before pulling the trigger will increase kill percentage. Sounds like your friend needs to let some deer walk instead of taking poor shots.

[laker1]

Muzzeloading suppose to be about short range shots with hunters knowing there ability and not just hoping they can bring down a animal with disregarding making a clean shot. We all have been duck hunting and we all have seen sky busters shooting at birds so high you wonder how they can see them. It all comes down to hunter ethics. To a certain group and I don't know how big that group is,but it is all about the kill,nothing else matters. I do believe most hunters are very self conscious.

[TooTallTom]

You are correct, in pointing out the obvious...otherwise the poor shot would be intentional. (probably not too many people trying to aim for a lower leg) The biggest human error problem is taking shots that aren't a high percentage, i.e. sprinting deer, or shooting further than you've tested at the range. Better decision making before pulling the trigger will increase kill percentage. Sounds like your friend needs to let some deer walk instead of taking poor shots.

I agree 100% TruthWalleyes, but I don't think that's a reason to introduce scopes to the muzzleloader season. The only outcome I see from that is that ethical hunters are still taking ethical shots (but at longer ranges) and unethical hunters are still taking unethical shots (but at longer ranges).

The difference for unethical hunters is that a questionable shot at closer range is a higher-percentage shot for two reasons: the increased margin for error in what is effectively a bigger target (an 8" target overs more MOA at 50 yards than at 100 yards), and more energy remaining in the bullet to help overcome poor shot placement (greater hydraulic shock potential).

I also think it's important not to test at the range, but to practice at the range. Do the math for your load (and use a chrony if you can) to figure out max effective range, and then practice practice practice. "I did this a couple times at the range" does not make a shot high-percentage or ethical for the average shooter.

[walleye365]

No scopes for muzzleloaders.

[TruthWalleyes]

I don't think that's a reason to introduce scopes to the muzzleloader season. The only outcome I see from that is that ethical hunters are still taking ethical shots (but at longer ranges) and unethical hunters are still taking unethical shots (but at longer ranges).

So then nothing changes from what happens today

Ethical hunters will be ethical hunters, and vise versa...doesn't matter which weapon is used: it is the hunter that makes the decision to pull the trigger knowing their confidence level.

I'm just going to do my long range shooting during slug season this year, and then back to the peep sight for muzzleloader season.

[TooTallTom]

The behavior doesn't change. The "primitive" nature of the season (which was originally established to be a primitive season) does change tremendously.

But I do agree with you about education (mostly ethics) being the key to fewer lost (wounded) deer.

[gspman]

"Lets not create a muzzleloader that is just a single shot rifle."

Too late. That's exactly what it has become. Scary out in farm country.

[flipper]

One thing that always baffles me when people talk about muzzleloaders is that they somehow have the idea that sidelocks and muzzleloaders of "yesteryear" are not accurate. The truth is that the accuracy of some of the fast twist muzzleloaders of the period around the Civil War is unsurpassed even by todays inlines. I can shoot patched round balls into a 2 inch pattern at 80 yards with my Lyman Great Plains percussion sidelock with good consistancy. I really don't think I can do a whole lot better with the inlines in my gun safe.

[lakevet]

One thing that always baffles me when people talk about muzzleloaders is that they somehow have the idea that sidelocks and muzzleloaders of "yesteryear" are not accurate. The truth is that the accuracy of some of the fast twist muzzleloaders of the period around the Civil War is unsurpassed even by todays inlines. I can shoot patched round balls into a 2 inch pattern at 80 yards with my Lyman Great Plains percussion sidelock with good consistancy. I really don't think I can do a whole lot better with the inlines in my gun safe.

I think that the hunter of yesteryear was also a better shot than most modern hunters. Especially with open sights.

They had a lot more experience, usually on a lot of small game with the old open sighted .22 in the past century, then the larger game. My older relatives, most who have passed on, were downright scary accurate with their weapons, mostly open sights. Even when I was a kid, you were just as likely to see a kid running around the neighborhood with a open sighted .22 as with a ball and bat. Now someone calls the cops in most neighborhoods. And we didn't talk about head shots on squirrels & rabbits, it was how many you got thru the eye that separated the good from the best. Not to brag, but my youngest got his first squirrel last year at age 7 with an open sighted old single shot .22 and it was a head shot.

The old technology can be very accurate out to quite long ranges, but it takes work to develop the personal skills to do it. That to me is part of the fun, but it seems like there are hunters who want it quicker and easier. To them it is a negative to work on an open sight muzzleloader setup that works for them and to practice with it. Also shooting at a live deer is not quite the same as punching holes in paper.

Do you rely more on technology or on your skills?

I think muzzleloading is about developing and relying more on your skills. As flipper said, the guns "of yesteryear" are capable of more than many think.

lakevet

[lakevet]

"Lets not create a muzzleloader that is just a single shot rifle."

Too late. That's exactly what it has become. Scary out in farm country.

And why there are so many restrictions on muzzleloading in some parts of farm country....like muzzleloading kids restricted to bucks only period, even though regular shotgun season kids with scoped autoloading shotguns can shoot a doe via doe permits.

lakevet

[flipper]

Now I know we are basically on the same page lakevet. The ones that drive me nutz are the ones that don't practice before season and come back saying they "missed again". I know that a lot of these "misses" are actually bad hits.

[lakevet]

Yep, and my youngest kid, now 8 years old, who can't deer hunt yet, can follow up on a shot and a blood trail or just tracks, a lot better than most of these guys who look like they stepped out of a tv show or catalog with all the latest equipment and clothing. I have helped more than one of these "I musta missed" "this gun doesn't have the right......." guys, most who I have never met til I see them wandering around in the woods, follow up on the shot and track their deer. Many don't have the skills, which you can't purchase, but must be learned. Others are just lazy. I try to not be critical, but get the point across that they need to work on their skills, which means time and effort, not just money spent. And it's fun to do!

lakevet