What's up with folks targeting closed spieces

[DTro]

Who said it's inconvenient?

I'm just saying that allowing C&R year round would eliminate all gray areas and people wouldn't be complaining every year about someone catching a few bass or a musky and letting them go.

The simple fact is that unless you have a fish in your possession, a "fishing out of season" case would hold little water in court and I'm sure the DNR is well aware of that. Seasons were put in place back when people kept all their fish, C&R was unheard of. Now, the openers are much more of a social event and mainly because of changed attitudes and strict bag/slot limits.

A C&R season year round would affect harvest levels and the fishery very little. Matter of fact it would probably spread it around for fish such as walleye, a HUGE portion of the total harvest happens opener weekend.

[TooTallTom]

I've said it every single year this topic comes up and I'll say it again.

Closed seasons are the problem. Have a harvest season and allow C&R the rest of the year. Problem goes away.

If people want to catch and release smallmouth bass all day, do we need to criminalize them? Face it, when we see people fishing C&R out of season, we are really not upset they are hurting the fishery (which they most likely aren't) we are more upset that we can't be doing it ourselves too.

It seemed to me like you were saying that the closed season was the problem, not the people violating the law. I disagree with that sentiment.

You're right, having no closed season would eliminate any gray areas, and that closed-season C&R fishing is a really tough one to prove in court. That doesn't mean that we should just eliminate the law.

I agree that lots of people's attitude about keeping fish has changed, but I also think that it only takes a couple of knuckleheads to really mess up a fishery. Right now, people target species out of season. If closed season for certain species is eliminated, I think those same people will continue to fudge the law a bit, but now they're fudging on sizes/ limits. I don't see any reason to take an extra violation off the books, so that there's one less thing to charge poachers with when they do get caught. Again, I really don't see any problem with not being able to fish during this time of year. People (Not you, I'm speaking generally. I think you're just sick of listening to people whine.) need to put on their big-boy or big-girl pants and grow up and accept that they can't have everything they want whenever they want it.

Where do you get your numbers about harvest on opener versus the rest of the season? I agree that no closed season would spread harvest around and that the opener is somewhat artificially high pressure, but the problem is that the harvest (and the C&R) is being spread into a time when the fish are already stressed. I'd really like to see the results of some kind of study about the behavior of the fishing population and the effects on upper-midwest springtime fish.

[Acemac]

MInnesota has way to much regulation on these things you need to be a rocket doctor to understand all the ins and outs. I agree have a keep sesone and a c&r the rest of the year. or just have one season were everthing is open.

I am trying to figure out going trout fishing this weekened and I cant belive that I have to bring a file folder full of info so I dont break the law its just silly.

or for the love of pete post all the regs at Every landing including all these silly slots.

[DTro]

I also think that it only takes a couple of knuckleheads to really mess up a fishery.

Just how would they do that? I bet they could care less about laws.

In the first two weeks of the season, anglers catch about 40 percent of the 3 to 4 million walleyes harvested in a typical year.~~~~ Minnesota Conservation Volunteer April-May 2005

[TooTallTom]

People who don't know/ don't care, and keep way too many fish or always and only the biggest (breeding stock) fish they catch are a threat to the fishery. I don't see any reason to not have one more violation for them.

That's a pretty neat factoid. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the season is still new, and people just need to satisfy their jones for fishing, or if it's because the fishing is so much easier in May?

[TooTallTom]

Yeah, Acemac, all the regs can definitely be confusing. But I really don't see a one size fits all set of laws being as effective on all the different kinds of water bodies we have in this state as laws that are tailored to different classes of water.

I do agree that specific regs should be available at individual accesses. That would be really expensive, but probably worth it in my opinion.

[DTro]

People who don't know/ don't care, and keep way too many fish or always and only the biggest (breeding stock) fish they catch are a threat to the fishery. I don't see any reason to not have one more violation for them.

Sorry, I just don't understand the point you are trying to make there. If there was an open C&R season, what would change?

All I'm saying is that we already have strict bag/slot limits for a harvest season, and a C&R period would eliminate all the confusion as to who is targeting what, when, where, and how.

I'd seriously rather have CO's working harvest/poaching cases rather than chasing around sparkly boats that are throwing spinnerbaits in early May.

[TruthWalleyes]

Quote - DTRO:"All I'm saying is that we already have strict bag/slot limits for a harvest season, and a C&R period would eliminate all the confusion as to who is targeting what, when, where, and how.

I'd seriously rather have CO's working harvest/poaching cases rather than chasing around sparkly boats that are throwing spinnerbaits in early May."

+1

The real harm is done when a fish is harvested. Nothing changes if c&r season is implemented. It's just (short of a confession)impossible to charge someone with fishing for an out of season fish, the only way is if they keep a fish...again, that is clearly spelled out as illegal whether it be during a C&R season or a closed season(like we have today).

Those who want to fish for out of season fish will do as they please, whether it be illegal like today's regs, or the suggested C&R season. In either case, harvesting a fish is not legal.

Will you see increased fishing pressure if it was a C&R season...Probably yes, but doubtable much more. Lots of fair weather fishermen that won't change their patterns just because you made it legal to catch and release a fish.

Edit: and the people who are die hard fishermen before the opener season...99% of them are catching out of season fish on the tiny crappie baits!!!!!!!

[TooTallTom]

I don't think that enforcement for targeting closed species is distinct or conducted seperately from enforcement of number or size limits. The CO just has one more line item for the ticket they're writing. I think that's a good thing. CO's wouldn't logically chase (or even spend much time observing, due to the gray-area nature of the case) the sparkly boats only for targeting closed species. But I think they would get those violating anglers for over limit or having fish during closed season and then ALSO cite them for targeting closed species. I think the process is the same, but the number of violations is different.

I don't think there's any confusion about who's targeting what, when, where. If the season is closed NO ONE should be. I do agree that the enforcement is more tricky, but I don't think that COs spend lots of time observing specifically for target closed species. (I don't think that they take notes on equipment, technique, catch rates, etc.) I just think it's a violation for when they find someone who's obviously violating (Say, fishing 6" lures in a lake with panfish and muskies during the closed season for muskies.) that law, or is also violating a different law (posession of a closed species, for instance).

I guess ultimately, there's not much difference between a violation for havesting during C&R only and harvesting during closed season, except that you can add targeting closed species if you have a closed season.

As the law stands, targeting closed species is a harvest/ poaching violation. For me, that's the bottom line.

[DTro]

I guess ultimately, there's not much difference between a violation for havesting during C&R only and harvesting during closed season, except that you can add targeting closed species if you have a closed season.

As the law stands, targeting closed species is a harvest/ poaching violation. For me, that's the bottom line.

I'd really like to hear of 1 case, (just 1) in which someone was prosecuted for targeting an out of species fish in which they had zero in possesion. Sure the CO can write a ticket for anything they want, but prosecution is a whole other matter. A 10" bait in Musky waters is nothing more than fishing for pike.

For me personally, I just don’t see the harm of letting folks that want to C&R fish, do so without being treated like a poacher. In my opinion, there is a distinct difference.

Now if you are a guide making money by targeting out of season fish, that changes everything.

I respect your opinion though Tom and ultimately we both want to see a healthy fishery. I just think we could avoid this whole issue every year with a few modifications.

[PierBridge]

Quote:

If there was an open C&R season, what would change?

I would imagine especially with the digital age we live in that many 1,000's of fisher-people would target vulnerable game fish, Walleye, Bass, Muskie early in the spring when they are spawning. Thus in DNR's mind hurting the fishery's and creating a whole slew of additional logistical problems as well..

How do you feel about people targeting winter Flatheads as long as they don't keep them?

[DTro]

How do you feel about people targeting winter Flatheads as long as they don't keep them?

Honestly, I could care less. I hear some people in the Catfishing circle say that we need specific rules closing the season on Flats in the winter and I would disagree with that. What we need is a no harvest season. If people want to go “jig up” a flathead in a wintering hole, have at it….but at the same time, don’t come back saying you “caught it” though either

We have laws on the books about snagging and that is fairly easy one to prove, especially with fish in possession.

If Musky and Bass folks are chompin at the bit to get out there and fish and they are just going to release them anyways, I say why not?

[PierBridge]

Fair enough!...

[TooTallTom]

I don't see this as something that even gets cited by itself (with any kind of frequency worth mentioning) due to the difficult nature of the prosecution, but rather as just another stick to hit a poacher with. I don't see a difference between the poacher who's keeping fish during C&R only and the one who's targeting/ keeping fish during closed season. I think the complaints about people violating the law are justified.

The law is something that exists primarily (I hope) to protect the common resource, whatever that may be. It also exists to level the playing field among those who would use that resource. So, I can see people being upset about those who would target closed sepcies. Those people are violating the law as it currently exists. I haven't seen any evidence yet that convinces me that the additional pressure of C&R fishing during the spawn/ winter recovery time WON'T harm the fishery, so I'll default to the way the DNR has it set up now. If they decide to change the law on the basis of some research they've conducted showing that continuous C&R is not a problem, that's fine by me. I might even get out and fish.

I'm enjoying the discussion, and I appreciate that you're willing to participate. You've got good reasons for your position (more clearly-defined enforcement action, no "spike" in pressure), and I do agree that a healthy fishery is the common goal.

[TruthWalleyes]

I clearly just don't get it...

Guy goes and targets northerns(out of season), he catches and releases 5 fish.

I go crappie fishing. I catch 30 crappies, 5 northerns, 3 bass, 2 walleyes...who was more in the wrong?

In both cases all fish were released. Am i considered a poacher as you would consider the 'northern' fisherman in the case above?

Wouldn't a C&R season clear this up? I don't feel like i'm breaking the rules since i truely am trying to target an 'in season' fish, but often enough catch an 'out of season' fish.

I just don't see the difference in the two senerios...who deserves the ticket. I caught just as many nords as the guy who intended to catch them.

[jwmiller33]

The DNR sees no negative implications with stress on the walleyes on Pools 2 and 4 of the Mississippi River [otherwise it wouldn't be open all year], which is open year round to walleye fishing. Pool 2 is catch and release only all year.

[TooTallTom]

The difference is in the intent. If you were targeting crappies, and he was targeting northerns, you would not be breaking the law, but he would be.

Which fish bites your lure is something you cannot control, which fish you target (through lure selection, presentation, location, etc.) is something you can control.

[reinhard1]

again i wish people would just call enforcement in the dnr. it would clear up a lot of things in this discussion. truth, your fishing for crappies and catch fish that are not in season and realeasing them. this has happened to me and most everybody. you were doing everything right. however if a CO was watching you even if you were using small baits for panfish and you kept catching bass more than panfish he would tell you to move to another area. if someone was in a panfish/bass lake and a CO was watching someone throw spinnerbaits around before opener [i mean general opener] he would give you a citation. if on the same lake after the opener but before bass season and there are pike in there he would not give that person a citation but maby watch for awhile to see if the angler kept a bass.

in rivers it's different. i have people say they saw people use sucker minnows in the mississipi river before season. that would be ok because catfish are open year arround. however if that same person started to catch smallies and not cats the CO would tell that person to change baits or move to another area. all of this was told to me by three separate enforcement officials.

it's all about common sense. complaining about someone taking a picture of a prized fish and then quickly releasing it is bogus. i dont know how many bass i have cought while using a flu flu and eurolarva for panfish. you dont need catch and realease seasons if you follow the law. those that want to get cute and push it will be lighter in the wallet. go out there and have fun and enjoy the day. nobody has to worry if they have good fishing ethics. good luck.

[TruthWalleyes]

The difference is in the intent. If you were targeting crappies, and he was targeting northerns, you would not be breaking the law, but he would be.

Which fish bites your lure is something you cannot control, which fish you target (through lure selection, presentation, location, etc.) is something you can control.

Again, I don't get it...Which situation hurts the fishery more? The only arguements i've seen against a c&R season is hurting the fishery...so which senerio hurts the fishery more? I would guess my situation since i caught more out of season fish...but should the other person be fined for the same actions.

I just don't get how the same amount of fish can be pulled from the lake, yet only one is considered illegal.

I'll get Off the box now. Of course i share the same values of our fisheries as you Tootalltom and Dtro. Just keeping the argument lively.

[pulleye16]

It seems some of us have "I want it now" attitude. I can see both sides but whats the big deal waiting 2-3 months? I would hate to see C&R all season. Do people understand the stress this puts on some fish? espicially during spawning? It also gives us something to look forward to every year.

Whats worse for the fish survival...one guy going out and CPR 100 walleye's in one wknd or one guy catching and keeping the first 6 walleys he caughts for the day regardless of size?

I bet the guy that caught 6 did WAY less damage to the walleye population and survival rate then the guy who CPRed 100.

But who am I to say anything right?...I pretty much ONLY CPR (cause I enjoy fishing and would hate to stop after 6 fish)!

[Craigums]

whats the big deal waiting 2-3 months? I would hate to see C&R all season.

[Shawn Kellett]

If Musky and Bass folks are chompin at the bit to get out there and fish and they are just going to release them anyways, I say why not?

I caught a muskie on a 22" pike (pulling shad raps for the record) this weekend and she was dropping eggs all over as I was unhooking her. While on Minnetonka they're not dependent on natural reproduction to maintain the population on many lakes natural reproduction is the only thing we have. If people are out targeting these and other fish on lakes that are 100% reliant on natural reproduction there could be problems. I'm not saying it'll be the end of the world, but it's not going to make it better.

[TooTallTom]

The survival rate on the kept fish is 0%...I bet the survival rate on the CPR'd fish is going to be a little higher than that

Good point, but the survival rate on a fish that was never caught is dang near 100% (I'm excluding natural predation here. Obviously nothing lives for ever, except maybe Duncan McLeod of the clan McLeod.)

TruthWalleyes, I see your point about you having a greater impact on the fishery than the other guy in your example. But, it's not just about the two of you. It's about the totality of people fishing during closed or C&R only season.

If the season is closed, there will be far fewer fish caught (because they should only be caught accidentally) than if the season is C&R only, which would allow everyone who wants to deliberately fish for and catch fish when they are not legally allowed to during closed season.

[DTro]

But Shawn you know darn well just as I do that people are out there targeting them right now. Not much that can be done when you have Pike in the same system.

What's worse, releasing a fish that is dropping eggs or killing one when the water temp is 80?

I just offered up a suggestion that would greatly clarify the regs in MN. Harvest season, and a C&R season.

To reinhard: I would still like to see ONE example of someone actually being found guilty of targeting a fish out of season without having a fish in possession. There's no way that simply throwing a spinnerbait before bass season would hold in court.

[TooTallTom]

I'm not convinced that our current regulations to the effect of "You can fish for, catch, and keep (unless otherwise prohibited), versus you cannot fish for" are less clear than C&R regulations to the effect of "You can fish for, catch, and keep (unless otherwise prohibited), versus you can fish for, catch, but not keep."

I would bet on people saying, "But I can fish for them, and catch them. I thought I could keep them, too! It's not fair, if I can't keep them why can I even fish for them?"