mn might be allowing scopes for muzzleloader season?

[flipper]

It's all a matter of where you draw the line. Myself I wouldn't care if it were a sidelock season and you had to shoot a patched roundball. With a peepsite and a little practice I would feel very comfortable shooting out to 85 or 90 yards with my Great Plains Rifle. I would like to point out, however, that those who think there is a big difference in either accuracy or reliability between the sidelocks and the inlines are simply ignorant about them. The sidelocks might take a little more time to learn how to shoot them but their accuracy and reliability are outstanding. What they decide to legislate will not affect my hunt a bit other than help me decide which gun to take along. If I do my part, and am willing to be out in the cold, I will put some venison on the table.

[PFUNK]

Then why is there any fuss at all over the inlines? If they aren't any more accurate or reliable why are they so frowned upon by traditionalists?

[flipper]

I donut know because I am not a traditionalist. Some people don't like change. Actually there were some inline rifles in the 1800s but they never got to be popular.

[lakevet]

I donut know because I am not a traditionalist. Some people don't like change. Actually there were some inline rifles in the 1800s but they never got to be popular.

Similar to scopes back then, inlines were very expensive to manufacture and so not very widely used. Because they were expensive, governments went with sidelocks to equip their armies. This means that sidelocks were more available to the hunters, and as such were widely used.

lakevet

[flipper]

Why would it cost more then (or now) to manufacture a muzzleloader with an inline form of ignition? It seems the opposite to be true if you examine the inticacies of a lock compared to a simple plunger or open hammer design.

[TooTallTom]

I think you could argue plunger vs. hammer/ sidelock either way as far as simpler design. I think a central hammer or sidelock are basically the same as far as number and complexity of moving parts is concerned. I think sidelocks (especially percussion) would be cheaper since the hammer is just slapped on the side, rather than having to allow for it internally. I think that the internal nature of a plunger system is what would also make that one more expensive.

Obviously, this is just what I think.

[fr0sty]

I just checked out the harvest stats on the dnr HSOforum. They show from 1994 to 2010 the break down of firearms, archery and muzzy harvests.

Deer numbers are managed by the big hammer (firearms hunters). Archery and muzzy hunters don't even make a dent in keep deer populations in check. Even with the gaining popularity of muzzy hunting, they still only take a fraction the number of deer that archery hunters take. That leaves two reason I can see why someone is either for or against the scope issue.

First is to keep the muzzy season more traditional or "pure". Nothing stops anyone today from having a ye'olde time hunting with the most primitive of traditional muzzy guns. Heck, you can even tan your own deer hides and wear some sweet Daniel Boone buck skins in the field. You may get a bit chilled though in a MN winter. Maybe to keep it more traditional we should ban modern thermal base layers. You could make your own coon skin cap though to keep your head nice and warm

The second, and to me most likely reason for being against scopes and wanting to keep the muzzy season more traditional is to keep hunter numbers low during the muzzy season.

I don't have a personal preference on scopes. My eyes are starting to go, but I am fine shooting open sites. If given the option to use a scope, I would. Wher I hunt, the extra range a scope give wouldn't likely be useful, as most shots I can currently take are withing my open sight comfort range. That being said, I likely would buy a scope because I am comfortable shooting with one.

I am a firearms hunter. I take the entire season off from work to hunt. I pass on does and small buck early, but if the season is coming to an end and I haven't taken a buck, I will shoot a doe. I love venison and want that meat in my freezer.

I use the muzzy season to give me more options should I not get any deer during the firearms.

[marksman]

Well said frosty!

[PFUNK]

Going off of what Frosty said regarding hunter numbers, I will pose a new question for everyone then. How much popularity do you think the muzzleloader season will gain if they legalize scopes? Do you think that a large number of people are going to go out and purchase a muzzleloader if scopes are legalized? Will muzzleloading then put a dent in the number of deer harvested?

[flipper]

I don't think a lot more people are going to get into muzzleloading just because they could legally use a scope. There might be a few more deer harvested because in some areas a scope would increase your effective range. In the woods I don't think it would change things much in that regard.

[Musky Buck]

Not scope related but why do we get an extra 23 days with gun in hand in old zone 4? Wasn't zone 4 the farm/open country area more or less. Scopes on muzzy's, I see the advantage of shooting early/late as a plus as you'd be able to check the deer with your scope to see if you want to blast it, heck you could sit a 1/2 hour after shooting light as nocturnal as they are, with a snow background and still make the shot, 1 shot won't attract much attention, you'd be able to airmail that longer bomb more confidently, not that a longer trigger pull most aren't used to will make you shoot high if not miss, you can try a riskier shot threading 1 between trees close or far, my gut tells me scope or no the rate of wounded deer will be unchanged meaning more rookies joining the ranks, sighting in less as cleaning them is a chore, taking higher risk shots because of the scope, shots that were impossible with open sights will be tried more by scope, anyway, I'm really not for or against, I understand youngsters and people with eye issues, older hunters etc. it would help and when scopes are legal I can still pour down the blackpowder, cap, 370 grain slug no scope and hunt my way, 23 extra gun days I never thought I'd see that in my lifetime nor this free for all in deer hunting opportunity. Times change and I'm stuck in 1983 lol.

[lakevet]

Then why is there any fuss at all over the inlines? If they aren't any more accurate or reliable why are they so frowned upon by traditionalists?

They have a shorter learning curve regarding reliability. Especially with 209 primers. There was a fuss but that was years ago. Majority have them now, so that horse is out of the barn and in the next county.

lakevet

[lakevet]

Why would it cost more then (or now) to manufacture a muzzleloader with an inline form of ignition? It seems the opposite to be true if you examine the inticacies of a lock compared to a simple plunger or open hammer design.

Sidelock parts could easily and cheaply be stamped out. In lines require more machining, and thus cost more back then. Especially if you wanted a coil spring to move the hammer. Now economies of scale and manufacturing technology have changed that equation.

Lakevet

[PFUNK]

They have a shorter learning curve regarding reliability. Especially with 209 primers. There was a fuss but that was years ago. Majority have them now, so that horse is out of the barn and in the next county.

lakevet

It doesn't appear to me when i view this thread that the fuss is over though. I have heard a lot about how the muzzleloaders today are so nearly equivalent to regular firearms that they shouldn't have their own season. On the other end of the spectrum I have heard how todays inlines are no more accurate or reliable than the old sidelocks. I just don't get it. Seems to me that it is plain and simple that there are always going to be people opposed to change, no matter what form it comes in. Even minor changes get turned into big issues and people start believing that the result will be the end of the world as we know it. Enough ranting. To me, scopes pose very little harm. My feelings:

1. I don't feel you will see the number of hunters during the muzzleloading season skyrocket, or even increase by much at all for that matter, if you legalize scopes.

2. I don't think hunters are going to be taking stupid shots just because they have a scope because I don't believe hunters ethics change like that. If they are willing to lob a stupid shot with a scope, they would have been just as willing to lob a stupid shot with an open sight. A scope doesn't change the responsibility that a hunter has for his own decisions. There will always be irresponsible hunters regardless. A responsible hunter knows his limits with open sights. If scopes become legal, a responsible hunter LEARNS his effective range with that scope through practice. Irresponsible hunters won't know their limits in either case.

3. I don't agree with some who claim that I want a scope on my muzzleloader so I don't have to work to get close to the animal. That a scope is my "easy way out". Thats absurd! When I switched from a 3 pin sight to a 5 pin sight with my bow, I didn't think to myself "Awesome... now that I have pins out to 60 yards I don't have to get within 40!" On the contrary, it meant I got to do a lot more practice in honing my skills to make those last 2 pins actually mean something to me. Do I want to make a 60 yard shot? HECK NO! The conditions would have to be perfect for me to feel comfortable with that shot. If they were perfect, and I felt like I couldn't cut the distance, I would take the shot.

4. I don't agree that the number of deer harvested is going to go up by any significant amount.

5. I DO agree that there probably won't be a big decrease in the number of wounded deer. A poor shot with open sights is likely not much better with a scope. But for some people, it does help.

6. I DO believe that if scopes are legalized, we will not see much change at all as far as the hunting landscape goes. I think the impact scopes will have would be very minimal, and I believe that many people falsely believe this is a big cut into the integrity of muzzleloading.

These are my opinions. I do not claim my opinions are "correct". They simply make perfect sense to me.

[hockeybc69]

PFunk nailed every point.

Bring on the scopes!

[bowhunternw]

Can I ask why do you hunt muzzleloader? If you want all the conveniences of a firearm why not just hunt the regular season. I strongly disagree with the scopes. It already has crossed the line in my opiniion, you have accurate rifle shaped projectiles, preformed powder pellets, inline design and now you want scopes. The only difference between these and a standard firearm is you load the gun from the end of the barrel and not a sideloader. Maybe they should add a separate season for bolt action, pumps and semi auto's then. Leave the season alone, leave it to those that want a tradional season, and if you want all the modern tech. hunt the regular season. Sorry that is how I feel.

[fr0sty]

The same logic that applies to keeping the muzzy season pure by not allowing scopes could also be applied to archery.

Modern recurve bows can in some ways be compared to the modern muzzy. Modern recurve bows are to long bows as modern inline muzzle loaders are to traditional flintlocks. Both the recurve and modern inline muzzy evolved from their basic roots and combine the essence of each with ease of use and other improvements.

I don't hear the same type of outcry from archery hunters, but maybe I am not aware of it since I don't bow hunt.

[flipper]

I don't really care one way or another about the scopes on muzzleloaders but these new bows are ridiculous. They don't even look like a bow anymore and all it takes is a few shots to master them. I think they should go back to a more traditional bow without the fancy sights.

[lichen fox]

PFUNK, I agree with you totally! The reason we have all these wonderful opportunities to hunt is simply because we have an abundunt resource to hunt! The DNR makes changes when necessary, including requiring muzzle and archery hunters to apply for antlerless permits, in certain area's, (just like the regular firearms hunters),because in those selected area's the herd needs some re-building! I also see in many of these posts that the underlying reason that many are against it is simple jealosy...someone else may get a chance at a Deer, (big buck), thus taking away "their opportunity" for next year at that Deer! We are out there to do our best to keep our herd numbers within the carrying capacity of the land...who cares whether we use a scope on our bow, muzzy, shotgun or rifle? That should be a personal choice, not a mandate from the government! I'm all for, more choices...more freedom! Just hunt and enjoy it...choose your weapon...30-30 with buckhorn sights, a 300 mag with a 20 power, range finding scope, bow, muzzy...whatever you are comfortable and confident in for your style of hunting!

[PFUNK]

I hunt the muzzleloader season because it means I get to get out and about and it beats the heck out of sitting at home. If I still have a tag to be filled, I enjoy getting out with the muzzleloader. I don't do it because I like the primitive nature of it. Some people may do it for this reason, but not me. If someone else likes to muzzleload for that reason... fine! I'm not going to tell you that you can't take your old sidelock out there if you want to. It is your choice as to how you want to hunt. I do hunt the regular firearm season as well. It doesn't change the fact that I can still only tag a single deer. There is nothing that I enjoy more than hunting or fishing, so I spend as many days in the woods as I can. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't be opposed to making a hunter pick between regular firearm and muzzleloader. Would I be bummed about not being able to get out those other days... sure, but it isn't the end of the world. I think deer numbers have been doing just fine while allowing us to hunt both seasons.

Like Frosty said... you never hear about guys who hunt with recurves complaining about the guys who use compounds. They aren't pleading for their own recurve hunting season. I do a lot of hunting with a friend who chooses to use a recurve. His grandfather did so and it interests him very much, so he too uses a recurve. It is his choice, just like it is mine to use a compound. Why should we be telling each other what to use?

[candiru]

True, you can only tag one deer but you can shoot more than that. Party tagging is abused. Wives, girlfriends, mistresses, boyfriends, grandma, kids,.........etc. Go back to picking one season or the other. Keep the muzzleloader season "primative". Scopes would be about the biggest improvement yet to muzzleloaders. In the agriculteral parts of the state where extending the range of a muzzleloader would be most effective, the deer herd is not doing so well.

There has been talk of adding crossbows to the archery season. That is being fought against as well. There is a new generation of them that can shoot over a hundred yards. I saw a kill on TV on an antelope at over 90 yards. You have to draw the line somewhere.

[Potsie]

In the agriculteral parts of the state where extending the range of a muzzleloader would be most effective, the deer herd is not doing so well.

Almost all of the agricultural land is private land, so who cares how far someone wants to shoot on their own land. It's up to the land owner to manage the deer population on their land however they like. Most public lands are state forests and WMA's in the North half of the state where the majority of shots are within 50 yards, and a large number within 20 yards. I don't see how allowing scopes will change the game at all in these places.

[HNTNBUX]

I am out there to hunt and look forward to scopes being allowed. I hunt with my bow, rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader. If they had a pistol, spear or slingshot season I would hunt that too. Just for the record I would not put a scope on my spear.

[Wanderer]

Chalk up a "No" vote for me. I haven't read the entire thread but I'm sure all my reasons have been cited already.

I don't forsee myself hunting with a spear or slingshot so I won't be joining you on those hunts if ever legal.

[HNTNBUX]

If they do legalize them you should probably give them a try. I bet you will flinch less with a spear or slingshot than you do with your rifle.