mn might be allowing scopes for muzzleloader season?

[PFUNK]

I don't see the problem of allowing a scope on your muzzleloader. I think this would be a non-issue if you simply had to pick between a regular firearm season or the muzzy season. Then all your "casual" muzzy guys will stick with the firearm season and the hardcore muzzy hunters get their season back. Then, those hardcore muzzy guys can decide whether they wanna use a scope or not to be more "modern". But I don't see why any hardcore muzzy guy gives a rip if the next muzzy guy wants to use a scope or not. That scope isn't going to make him any better a "hunter". Sure might improve his acuracy a little IF he puts himself in position to take a shot. But you have to do a lot of other things right during a tough muzzleloader season to even get the chance to take a shot. If it makes him more comfortable to have a scope on his gun and he can shoot better groups... GOOD. That is a GOOD thing. The issue is that we DEPEND ON EACH OTHER to know their personal limits with or without a scope. Legalizing them may make some guys think "awesome... now I can get the full 200 yards out of my muzzleloader". But some of them are gonna go to sight it in and find out they can't shoot effectively that far anyhow, and anyone who cares about being an ethical hunter isn't gonna push his boundaries. Changing the scope law won't change anyones ethics.

[marksman]

I have seen three in 6 years that is what we have lost. I know what you are going to say 3 is not a lot compared to maybe some peoples rifle season. But it is for the people I hunt with. Please don't question my tracking skills or my effort. We found blood on all three of those deer, 2 of them dropped on the spot only to get up again. I believe they were shot high and didn't bleed much because the holes either plugged up with tallow or froze up because of extreme cold temperatures. All three shots were clear shots less than 75 yards with .50 cal.

I do agree with giving kids and beginning hunters all the opportunities in the world to shoot deer. That is why I don't support antler point restrictions. I think it is a personal choice. That is also why I think they should legalize scopes for muzzy season. It is a personal choice if you want to make your hunt easier or harder. Muzzy season is also about controlling the deer population and having fun.

[TooTallTom]

I agree that forcing hunters to pick a season would be one good way to limit pressure and allow for more freedom within that season.

One thought I had about this today is that it's perfectly legal to put a scope on your modern muzzleloader and hunt with it in MN. You just have to do it during rifle season. There's no reason that an ethical muzzy hunter can't compete with ethical rifle shooters if both have firearms that are good for 200-yard shots. Both should be making one-shot kills anyway. (I know it doesn't always happen, but that's the goal, right?) So, if you want to use a scope on your muzzy, hang up your regular rifle and go to it.

I think the idea of a tradeoff for muzzy season between more equipment restrictions on the hunters who choose to participate in exchange for more freedom regarding legal deer/ longer season is a fair one.

We've gotten so attached (as a society) to the idea that we have to have everything all the time in order for something to be fair. I don't think that's the case.

[bowhunternw]

I am with the guys that if they do this then you have to pick a season. Because the only reason to have a muzzleloader season is to give some the chance to hunt with a few less people in the field. Todays muzzleloader is just a single shot rifle, it can't get much easier. Heck I would even like to see the pick a season extend into bow too, pick one and only one. Spread the hunters out a little. People with thier own land don't understand, but it helps give those without land access to private land.

[Musky Buck]

Not trying to attack you marksman really I'm not but we have also hit deer high at 75 yards or less and that .50 cal with a 370 grain slug, those deer staggered off looking drunker than a drunken sailor and they could not get up again after a very short tracking effort. The body shock and hole size, they were noodled beyond recognition. Under the spine above the core lung area, it does make some difference if you shoot from the ground or up in a stand I guess and you assume with a scope in 25 below weather wind howling you'll place that shot like Goober Pyle on Andy Griffith "can take an ear off a fly at 20 paces". Muzzy season is about controlling deer numbers......now you're losing me. Whoever said pick Muzzy or Rifle with your scope, I'm totally with that, 1 or the other, no more honey get up I got him, bring your tag, I'll leave him lay until you get here, save mine for muzzy season or oh you can only hunt first weekend so lets use your tags first, if you connect then I'd tag yours cause I gotta save my muzzy tag so I can get buck # 2 yeehaw. Easy solution, 16 day of muzz right, scope hunter you can have the 1st 4 days, traditionalists you get the 16. Your feathers ruffled yet, bottom line if it was 1995 none of this jibber jabber would be happening, technology is great eh, better hit submit before my machine locks up again.

[trolloni]

Well i guess i was wrong about making youre muzzeloader more effective with a scope,another thing i guess the dnr should make all bowhunters use a recurve instead of compounds , oh yeah they can do the job but are they right for everyone?

[Fowlmouth]

If people would have to choose between either rifle season or muzzy season better throw archery into the mix as well and make them choose one of the three. Only fair, right?

[HNTNBUX]

I only get one buck tag whether I shoot it with a bow, firearm or muzzleloader. It seems people are worried about APR, cross-tagging and if a youth will be able to shoot a doe, if uncle Bob can shoot the six point because he only has two days to hunt or I should be able to shoot four deer for my party because we never see deer. But then tell me I can't use a scope on my muzzleloader to shoot one deer because it is going to interfere with their hunt. Really? It seems to me that "you" are reducing my chances at a big buck, my chances at seeing more bucks and my ability to use the weapon I want. I guess we will see who is right come September, and then next September....

[Rippinlip]

Actually I kind of like the "choose your season".

Have to pick your weapon and season of choice.

I vote for Bowhunting!

[TooTallTom]

EDIT: This isn't directed at RippinLip, or any one else specifically, I just don't know how to make it blank in the [Re:] spot.

I'm sure that everyone would have much better success if we could all shoot any time of year, day or night, lights or no, over bait, and on any property.

Maybe that's the route we should take? No restrictions at all, so that no one's "hunting" ability is impacted at all. They call it hunting, and not shooting, for a reason. The challenge is part of the deal. If you are only concerned about making kills with whatever it is you want to use to do it, go buy a canned hunt someplace.

Doesn't anyone like a challenge anymore? I get skunked my fair share, and it puts a little extra fire in my belly for next time.

[marksman]

I like challenges!! But my version of a challenge could be way different then yours.

[TooTallTom]

Right, that's exactly my point. Those who want to challenge themselves with a 200-yard muzzy with a scope can already do that, just grab it the first Saturday after the first Friday in November and use it for the regular firearms season. I don't see enough of a difference between this type of muzzy and a regular firearm to justify special consideration.

I think that muzzy season should be reserved for people who want to shoot sidelocks. Similar to the way that archery season is reserved for people shooting bows if able and crossbows if they have a disability.

[bowhunternw]

I feel the same, if they allow scopes then is there really a difference from regular firearms season. IMO no it is just a small difference in how you load the gun.

[Grayfox]

When you buy a gun license you can use a bead,open sights or scope. With archery you can go back to the PRIMITIVE recurve or long bow with no sights,use a sight, with or without a peep or even a scope on your bow.

You can hunt any of those seasons without being limited to a certain sight that Joe blow your neibor thinks you should be using, so tell me how it affects the CHALLENGE to his hunt in any way. If he wants to use a flintlock rifle with open sights and patched round balls than go right ahead just like a traditional shooter can use his recurve or longbow and shoot instinctively. It's just not for me. It takes a lot of time and dedication to be able to shoot accurately consistantly. I for one just don't have the time to do that. I've seen several at 3D shoots that were happy to just hit the target, I for one need to be a little more precise. If using a scope helps you make a more precise shot that results in a quicker kill than why would anyone have a problem with that? The challenge is all up to the individual. Your idea of a challenge is probably a lot different than mine. To me, after 27 years of bowhunting, it's always been about getting as close to my target as possible. I'm nearing triple digits on deer kills with I'd say, 90% taken with a bow. Shooting a deer down here in farm country really isn't that difficult with a gun or a bow if you ask me. There were many years in Minnesota when I hunted during the firearms season with my bow. It really wasn't any more challenging hunting with that on private property either. Now if I really wanted a challenge I could of tried that in Carlos Avery WMA.

I personally feel much more comfortable taking that shot looking through a scope on my muzzleloader than with open sights. It doesn't make me want to lob shots at a deer at 200 yards because some clown on a canned hunt on TV tells me I can. I still try to get them inside 50 yards. Just my personal preference, just like it should be my decision on which sight I use.

Rob

[PFUNK]

I feel the same, if they allow scopes then is there really a difference from regular firearms season. IMO no it is just a small difference in how you load the gun.

Not to mention the fact that this is still a muzzleloader and you only get ONE shot as compared to your other repeating firearms. It's not the same thing unless I missed something and all rifle guys are using single shots.

I agree that allowing scopes for muzzleloader hunting wouldn't be a bad thing. What is the big problem for those against it? You think the harvest is going to go way up or something because of scopes? Or is it that you just don't like how it isn't as "traditional" as you would like it to be? I would agree that it is definitely modernizing the sport... but with the inline muzzleloaders that people are using, it is already very modern and adding a scope to that firearm doesn't really hurt anyone in my eyes. Like has been said, some guys feel more comfortable with them and shoot better. Not like they're legalizing something that isn't already widely used, like hand grenades and fully autos.

[bowhunternw]

[Not to mention the fact that this is still a muzzleloader and you only get ONE shot as compared to your other repeating firearms. It's not the same thing unless I missed something and all rifle guys are using single shots.

I agree that allowing scopes for muzzleloader hunting wouldn't be a bad thing. What is the big problem for those against it? You think the harvest is going to go way up or something because of scopes? Or is it that you just don't like how it isn't as "traditional" as you would like it to be? I would agree that it is definitely modernizing the sport... but with the inline muzzleloaders that people are using, it is already very modern and adding a scope to that firearm doesn't really hurt anyone in my eyes. Like has been said, some guys feel more comfortable with them and shoot better. Not like they're legalizing something that isn't already widely used, like hand grenades and fully autos.

So you get one shot and you are done for the day? It takes you a couple of seconds more to reload. Whats next a semi auto muzzleloader, as long as your burning black powder right. I just think that it not very tradional already and were does it end. Alot of guys quit rifle and took up blackpowder to get away from the crowds. The easier you make it the more people will take it up, wich I am fine with but then choose a season.

[PFUNK]

By one shot I mean you are very unlikely to get two shots at a deer with a muzzleloader. To say hunting with a muzzleloader isn't any different than a rifle other than the way you load it is a stretch. Guys shooting rifles can make a quick follow up shot in the case the first one wasn't perfect. You aren't going to have that ability with a muzzleloader, so if putting a scope on it means you will be a little more accurate then I say why not allow it? I agree it isn't very "traditional" either, which is why adding a scope to the mix to me is not a big deal. Like I stated earlier, I wouldn't be opposed to making a guy decide between regular firearm season and muzzleloader season either, but I am in favor of scopes. They don't make anyone a better hunter. They don't put you on deer you wouldn't have otherwise been on. They don't make the shot for you, they just make you a little more accurate and comfortable in my opinion. So why the big fear of them?

[reinhard1]

when i bought my dad a crossbow i put a scope on it. being elderly bow season was warmer and the scope make sure he made a good shot. same with a muzzeloader as far as making a good kill shot. this will be my first year with a scope. never had used one for anything. i want to make sure when i take a shot that it will be on target. same goes for muzzeloaders. eyesight isn't what it used to be. good luck.

[jigglestick]

scopes would get my vote IF they moved firearm season one week later and made a one week long, traditional weapons only season, starting the first weekend of november.

that'd get a few hutners PO'd wouldn't it.

for guys who's eyesight is failing, it is easy to get a permit for a non magnifying lighted retical scope.

I am very dissapointed at how the muzzle loader season has evolved to this point.

[jigglestick]

Think about this:

When asking permission to muzzy, landowners used to look at our open iron sighted, percussion cap, round ball sidelocks and say "Sure you can hunt. Good luck getting anything with those old guns!"

Now they have seen muzzy hunters with guns with 209 primers, synthetic stocks, bolt actions show up asking for permission and have seen tv shows of modern muzzy guns with scopes sniping big bucks at long range on TV and shooting catalogs with muzzy scopes with drop compensation reticles out to 250 yards and they say " no way can you hunt with those guns. You could pick off the big buck that is still on my property!" They assume we all have centerfire like performing muzzy guns.

lakevet

how many guys go up to a landowners house with their guns in their hands to ask permission to hunt?

[nonteepical]

why do some of you guys think a scope on a muzzleloader is "new" technology?

[jigglestick]

you've never even seen one of those

[lakevet]

why do some of you guys think a scope on a muzzleloader is "new" technology?

The vast majority of us are well aware that scopes were used, although they were rarely owned by the general hunting public and did not show up simultaneously with the invention of muzzleloaders.

This argument of scopes being around back then does not have any significance in this debate about use of scopes today.

Scopes were not anywhere close to being used commonly, just the very wealthy and military units could afford them. Back then shooting deer using the technology of a manmade light source (burning torch) while hunting shorelines at night to shoot deer was also legal and commonly used. Teddy Roosevelt shot his first deer that way. No one would advocate allowing shooting at night anymore. Teddy did it once and never did it again. He lobbied for MORE restrictions to protect the resource and hunting tradition as well as public land preservation so the common man would have access to land to hunt.

Basically we have to have restrictions on when where and how we harvest deer to protect the resource. Which restrictions we choose affects other components of hunt.

I think it would be great to maintain at least ONE season that has very firm restrictions on technology usage, and as a result is more liberal in other parameters such as length of season, less restrictions on what is legal, access to hunting spots easier to obtain, etc. This hunt, if preserved, will allow hunters of the future to experience a hunt like that experienced by those of years ago. If not preserved, only the rich will be able to buy that experience.

Allowing scope usage is not the death of muzzy season, but it is yet another cut that will eventually bleed out the heart and soul of muzzy season.

50,000 of the approx 60,000 muzzy hunters have not experienced what the original muzzy season was like. They had the opportunity to hunt muzzy, but they CHOOSE their first preference which was modern technology firearm season. It is natural they would push for muzzy to be more like their preferred firearm season, which allows scope usage.

However, it will be another step down the road to liberalizing use of technology, which inevitably results in more restrictions in what, where and/or when you can hunt.

In western states scopes, and other technology, are banned in muzzy season, as well as having to draw preference points to restrict hunter numbers. These states value and are protecting/preserving the muzzy experience of difficult hunt due to technology restrictions, in a season that has lower hunter density. This allows those of the general hunting public a chance to experience a hunt that has become much harder to access and otherwise is only available to those willing to pay big bucks to access private hunts that restrict hunters on the basis of private landowners using property rights to protect the hunt experience desired.

The hunting public also values this hunt experience as evidenced by the willingness of hunters to apply and wait years to get drawn, and the increasing of leasing and lease prices to obtain a lower hunter density, uncrowded hunting experience.

It is important to have the CHOICE of one season available to the "common man" on public land that is uncrowded.

My choice is to maintain a muzzy season with less technology allowed for all, resulting in more options as to what where and when you can hunt with a muzzy. Then we wouldn't have bans like banning 12 yr olds from shooting a doe in muzzy season.

Those who want scopes have always been able to use them in the crowded regular firearms season.

Whatever the choice, it will result in a tradeoff.

lakevet

[lakevet]

how many guys go up to a landowners house with their guns in their hands to ask permission to hunt?

Answer is obvious...NO ONE.

We would often be ASKED to show our guns almost right away, as the landowners were very interested in seeing them. They couldn't believe we were willing to hunt muzzy season with those guns. They correctly concluded, after seeing the weapons, that we would be low impact on their property and would treat it respectfully. Obtaining access to hunt was VERY EASY.

Now just the word "Muzzleloader" usually brings up the mental image of the modern muzzy that is marketed so heavily,,,,,,,,and access is much harder to obtain. Not impossible, but much more like reg firearms than it used to be!

When a muzzy hunter pulls out that new modern muzzy, the landowner sees something similar in appearance and maybe newer looking (modern) than the gun they use in the regular firearms season.

Slap a scope on it and then try to explain that it is just an old muzzleloader that has much less ability to harvest a deer than the weapons of regular firearms season.

The landowners more and more are correctly concluding that muzzy season has become just an extension of regular firearms season and as such are much more likely to deny access than they used to.

lakevet

[PFUNK]

lakevet... you make some good points in your defense of a more traditional season, and it is very apparent that you care a lot about preserving such a season. Having said that, I will add my two cents. I guess I feel like the whole argument on whether to allow scopes is sort of barking up the wrong tree. I feel like if one wants to have a truly traditional season, much greater changes must be evoked. If this is what you want, BIG steps have to be made backwards to resurrect the "traditional" season of olden days. I am sure you would love to see this, but maybe you feel like that is an unreachable goal and the DNR will never make such drastic changes. Because of this, you are simply trying to preserve what little bit remains "traditional". This is great and I implore you for pushing for things you feel deserve being implemented. I still feel, however, that scopes are a moot point in all of this.

The reason muzzleloading was so tough back then was not because they didn't have scopes on their firearms. Those guns were far less accurate and dependable than the ones we use today for muzzleloading (or at least the ones MOST of us use). That is what made it tough. I think that we often, or at least I do, associate a "traditional" hunt with a "difficult" hunt. Allowing the use of scopes would not make my hunt any tougher. I like the scope simply because it DOES make me a little more accurate and a little more comfortable when shooting. I think the picture of that old musket and scope go to show that even back then, they were pushing to improve their shooting skills. It may have been a technology only the wealthy could afford, but that is not the case anymore (unless you prefer Swarovski). Scopes are readily accessible just like many other things we use. Where do we draw the line on our technology? What about the scents that come "straight from the estrus doe"? What about the calls that perfectly imitate an estrus doe? What about lifelike photographic decoys? What about nanotechnology scent blockers that "kill human odor on contact"? I feel all of these things actually help "fool" deer into coming closer to me. That makes my hunt EASIER. I still have to make the shot when they arrive, and if having a scope on my muzzleloader means I can make that shot with more confidence and make an ethical kill, then why not add it? If scopes remain illegal during muzzleloader, it isn't going to prevent me from joining in on the fun. It isn't going to keep me off the public or private land I hunt, and therefore won't be freeing up land for you to hunt. Will making scopes legal take away even more land? Are more guys going to go out and buy a muzzleloader just cuz they can now add a scope to it? I don't think that many will, but that is just my opinion.

As far as gaining permission goes, I personally haven't had any trouble with my "modern" muzzleloader. Most of the land I hunt the farmers couldn't care less what kind of gun I take out there. If it means less deer trampling their corn they are all for it. It surprises me that the landowners you are conversing with are that opposed to you hunting simply because you have a gun that appears modern. I would reassure them it still only fires one shot, and I still have to put it where I want it to make a clean kill.