Best Way to Free Up Frozen Ice House

[McGurk]

if you had steel skids, could you hook up a set of jumper cables to them on your truck?

It's not that simple, but what you are suggesting is feasable. This is the same technique used to thaw frozen and buried steel watermains, without having to dig them up. You would need to hook up to each side of the length of metal you need to warm up, and the resistance of the metal is what warms it up. Like I said, though, it's much more complicated than "hooking up your jumper cables to it," but the theory is sound.

Hollow steel runners with removable caps/plugs could work, as stated, by heating up the pipes from the inside with a torch. I don't like the idea of doing it from the outside, though.

[LightningBG]

If every perm owner on the lake started this year after year Im sure it wouldnt be good for the lake.

If your too lazy, bussy or whatever to properly block up your house than you should have to do some chopping to get it out.

Luckily, not everyone is going to have this problem. IMO a couple bags isn't going to be much different from the road going around the lake that gets salted every time it snows or the people who live on the lake that use salt on their driveway. Or the towns along rivers that all their drainage goes into the river.

[Northlander]

So just add more? Thats like being a little bit pregnant aint it?

[mtbucket]

I will respectfully disagree with the salt method. Salt is primarily composed of sodium chloride, the major components are chloride and sodium ions. Therefore, I am not sure how you could have salt with no chloride in it. Solar salt typically refers to industrial salt that is obtained by the evaporation of sea water.

I spoke with two different MN DNR staff, one was a CO and one was a fisheries mgr., and they both felt that the intentional introduction of several bags of salt to state waters would definitely be subject to enforcementactions. It would at the least qualify as littering and could likely bring additional charges as well. Besides the pollution aspect, the salt does not quit affecting the ice when the house is removed. It could continue to degrade and weaken the ice in that area, and could create a weak ice hazard until the ice sheet melts completely.

[Hardyboy]

Seriously for a minute - what causes the shot through the floor to work? Fracture all the ice under the house?

The impact concussion from the bullet sends shock waves thru the ice and when the wave reaches a solid object (the house runners) the shock wave bounces causing the ice to break away from the house. Similar principle to your sonar it sends out a wave and when something interupts the wave (fish or other object) it bounces off giving you a return. i know the two are totally different it just used as an example of the concept.

[Ed Carlson]

I will respectfully disagree with the salt method. Salt is primarily composed of sodium chloride, the major components are chloride and sodium ions. Therefore, I am not sure how you could have salt with no chloride in it. Solar salt typically refers to industrial salt that is obtained by the evaporation of sea water.

I spoke with two different MN DNR staff, one was a CO and one was a fisheries mgr., and they both felt that the intentional introduction of several bags of salt to state waters would definitely be subject to enforcementactions. It would at the least qualify as littering and could likely bring additional charges as well. Besides the pollution aspect, the salt does not quit affecting the ice when the house is removed. It could continue to degrade and weaken the ice in that area, and could create a weak ice hazard until the ice sheet melts completely.

It would require less salt them the average pickup deposits on the ice in front of the shack in a season.

I dislodged a frozen in 10 x 14 with less than 6 cups of solar salt. Several bags is ridicules and completely unnecessary.

Even with salt, the old reliable spud bar is the most useful tool. And a handyman jack.

[Tom7227]

The difference between what drips off a vehicle and what you put down to free a house is that one of the two can be avoided. As far as problems -

The trouble with road salt

Our waters are being contaminated, sometimes long after the snow has melted.

By LAWRENCE BAKER

Mpls. Star Tribune

Last update: March 22, 2008 - 4:38 PM

The salt-strewn streets that have become a common winter sight in Minnesota now cause salt pollution severe enough that the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (MPCA) has started to classify some Twin Cities streams as legally "impaired" from chloride contamination.

The use of road salt (mostly sodium chloride) in the United States, uncommon a generation ago, has increased eightfold since 1960. A University of Minnesota study showed that the Twin Cities metropolitan region now uses an astounding 260 pounds of road salt per person every winter.

During snow melt, peak chloride concentrations in some urban streams can approach half that of ocean water, far higher than many freshwater organisms can tolerate even for a short period. Chloride levels high enough to impair aquatic plants and animals may persist through the summer. This happens because some dissolved road salt infiltrates into groundwater, which then seeps slowly into streams, contaminating them long after the snow has melted.

Since 2002, the MPCA has designated four major Twin Cities streams -- Shingle Creek, Battle Creek, Bevins Creek and Nine Mile Creek -- as impaired because of chloride toxicity to aquatic life. For these large streams to have chloride toxicity means that numerous small streams and lakes also have toxic chloride concentrations, though they have not yet been legally designated as impaired.

Google "road salt pollution" if you want to learn more.

[Ed Carlson]

I agree, road salts are a problem on watersheds. Sodium Chloride enhanced and chemically enhanced salts especially. Natural salts occurring in nature in many forms obviously can be a benefit or a detriment and/or part of the balance depending on the levels of salinity in the water.

In professional bait management water treatment systems we use 1/2 cup of Solar Salt per 35 gallons of water to balance the PH of the water and to make the bait healthier and stronger. This is an approved water treatment method superscribed to by the fisheries biologist, and environmentally safe.

In most all home water systems the same solar salts are used and we drink them daily. Millions if not billions of gallons of this solar salt treated water in going down the drain daily from our homes and business's and is not considered an environmental hazard.

[Tom7227]

In most all home water systems the same solar salts are used and we drink them daily. Millions if not billions of gallons of this solar salt treated water in going down the drain daily from our homes and business's and is not considered an environmental hazard.

Ed - the salt used in water softeners never comes in contact with the potable water. It is used to flush the resin in the tank during a recharging cycle. The brine exchanges ions or something and the crud take out of the water sticks to the resin and is released in the brine cycle. There is no sale added to the water you drink.

[McGurk]

There is no salt added to the water you drink.

Not the water you drink, but that salt solution has to go somewhere, otherwise you'd only ever buy salt for your softener once and never have to fill it again. Just because you don't drink it doesn't mean it doesn't get into your waste water. The brine created during the "regeneration cycle" simply goes into a drain pipe which dumps into your sewer or septic system. From there, it either goes to a treatment plant or, as said, into aquifers or other natural filtration system. Then, you add more salt as needed to keep your water soft, and it all happens again.

That being said, one has to keep a realistic big picture view of this. I don't like the salt being added to the lake directly in this manner, but I've got to think the sludge falling off of just a dozen or so trucks driving around a lake is probably depositing more salt that the one guy using a quarter of a bag of salt to free up his house. Now for an even bigger picture: Watershed problems are affected on a larger scale than just traffic driving on top of the ice in winter.

As stated, the salt and brine that gets poured out onto the roads has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is into our ditches or a city's storm water collection system (catch basins). That water typically makes it's way to some type of marsh, pond, creek, river, or lake. There's usually some sort of floating trash filter or sediment-settling collector to take some crud out, but rarely is salt removed. So it's getting there whether you want to limit vehicles driving, or salt being used to pop a poorly-maintained permy house out. I still don't like it, but I accept that there is already a lot of salt getting where we probably don't want it.

[TooTallTom]

I don't really understand the "There's already a huge impact on X from Y other uses, so it really doesn't matter if people add to that impact by doing Z." I guess I kind of figure that, yeah, there's a big impact on our water systems without adding additional salt, WD-40, windshield-washer fluid, etc. so I shouldn't make it even worse than it already is if I can avoid it. And, mostly, I can avoid it when the issue is using salt on my permie, WD-40 on my lures, or windshield-washer fluid to shoot my 'ducer through the ice before drilling.

I'm not trying to pick on any one person here, but I'm a fairly new member here and I think I already have to use more than one hand to count the number of times I've heard a poster say something along the lines of "Well, it doesn't really matter that I do this thing, because everyone else is doing this other thing that's probably worse anyway." It seems kind of like a way to dodge acknowledgement of and responsibility for one's actions, just kind of aggravates me.

[SalmonSlayer]

+1 TooTall

[McGurk]

If you read my previous posts, I said all along to use a good spud bar, put an edge on it, and armstrong it out. I also said repeatedly that I don't like the idea of using salt for this application. But to say that this is going to upset a "gentle balance" causing a massive fishkill is kinda knee-jerkish when you take into account the other factors. I don't use WD40 on lures, washer fluid (or worse antifreeze) for depth checking, or dump salt on the ice either. But I do drive on the ice, and I see the 2-stroke oil slicks behind some boats in summer, and I don't get all whipped up about them either.

A boat dragging in Zebra mussels and milfoil will do more damage to a lake than dumping 10 bags of salt into it. Just sayin'. I won't do any of those things, though, and I would never recommend anyone else doing it, either.

BTW, I am looking forward to a video, from trigger pull to trailer load, of someone using a rifle to get their house loose. Oh yeah; don't forget your blocking, either. Take it all off with you!

[tsande00]

Based on Ed's comments about adding 1/2 cup of solar salt to the tanks to better the life of the fish, than 6 cups, as mentioned being all that was needed to free a 10X14 shack probably just made the fish that much happier under the ice come early spring...at least the nearest 420 gallons of lakewater, which isn't very much.

If biologists say that solar salt is a good thing in moderation than why are people still whining about it? Solar salt is different than road salt.

[TooTallTom]

I know you haven't been advocating salt use, and your point about the "gentle balance" is well taken. I also didn't mean to pick on you personally, but I'm definitely glad you're willing to have the conversation. I think it's an important one to keep in people's minds. I guess my point is to encourage people to limit their impact where they can, rather than to just say "Aww fcuk it, let's do this", in order to preserve the resources that we have.

I just don't see any reason to push things just because. Yeah, oil comes out of a two-stroke. Chemicals leak out of pretty much any motor, and if you're using a motor you really have no choice. My point was that for things like salting a permie, WD-40 on lures, etc. we DO have a choice. And I think we should choose to not make a bigger footprint that we have to. I'm also not a fan of cutting down trees on public land for a couple of campfires over the course of the weekend. I guess my point is that, if the attitude is one of complacency and acceptance of these kinds of activities, everyone might start doing them, and then there really will be an impact. Why not just try to nip the behavior in the bud?

And I'm looking forward to that video, too. I think a large-caliber handgun might work really well for that application. Where's Dirty Harry when you need him?

[TooTallTom]

Ed said that biologist IN COMMERCIAL BAIT APPLICATIONS say that solar salt is a good thing. As far as I know, baitfish (and gamefish) have thrived for millions of years in the wild without solar salt application. I don't think the lakes in MN are really going to benefit from us adding any solar salt to them.

[tsande00]

Ed said that biologist IN COMMERCIAL BAIT APPLICATIONS say that solar salt is a good thing. As far as I know, baitfish (and gamefish) have thrived for millions of years in the wild without solar salt application. I don't think the lakes in MN are really going to benefit from us adding any solar salt to them.

My point was more that if it take an entire 1/2 cup to balance the PH in bait tank than 6 cups is absolutely nothing in a body of water the size of a lake.

Salt wouldn't be my first choice either, but I'd probably prefer that over a rifle in the event the spud bar wasn't getting the job done.

[TooTallTom]

Yeah, you're right that that concentration is tiny, but what about when every permie on Medicine starts doing it. And regardless of the "doom is near" hypothetical, why push it? It's totally avoidable, and completely unnecessary.

Okay, so rifle's out. Can I interest you in a large-caliber handgun and a bad Dirty Harry impression?

[Ed Carlson]

I do not advocate the use of any chemical in or lakes and streams, or adding any to ourselves we can avoid. All that know me, know this is my nature.

The salt was a option offered as a less dangerous and injurious option than others put on the table. The spud bar and jack is still the best method.

As for the bullets into the ice or elsewhere, everyone has omitted the led that will be produced here as well. The led from that round will find it's way into the system too.

Sweat, a spud bar, and a jack..I'm very good with that plan, knock yourself out.

duck2...did you get the shack out, and how did it go?

[TooTallTom]

Sweat, a spud bar, and a jack..I'm very good with that plan, knock yourself out.

There's a movie called "Grosse Pointe Blank" about a hit man skeptical about going to his 10-year class reunion, which his therapist is all for. He tells his therapist he'll give it a shot. The therapist says, "No! Don't give it a shot. Don't shoot anything!" It's a pretty funny movie. Dan Akroyd has a great, unforgettable, character.

[Ed Carlson]

Yup...Good movie...funny stuff too.

[nytelyter]

the first fishhouse i ever had built had 2 1/2 inch water pipe as skids under it that was some 20 years ago. there are so many benifits in doiung this one as said by elwood is the fact that you can hook up as i do y from my truck exhaust to the open pipe and let the truck idol and in about 20 minutes you have one side up and move to the other runner and do the same and you can be fishing and enjoying a cold one while its thawing . the other thing that is great about the water pipe in the contact patch on the ice. there is less than an inch of contact on the ice and this means way less friction on the ice for pulling purposes. sometimes the shack chases me as i pullit. i have my runners welded to a peice of 3inch angle iron that runns across the front and back of my house it assures that during those days when a move isnt going as well as planned that you dont seperate the runners from the fishhouse as well as break up any ice chunks tha could knock off the floor joists as you cross them. last thing is that it gives you a great point of contact that you can use to jack them out oof the ice when they do get a slight freeze on them ... paul

[Desperado]

Anyone ever try the Jimmy "JJ" Walker method ?

[highlife4me]

I bet a most of the younger FM'ers have never seen an episode of "Good Times".

[McGurk]

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