Sioux Mascot

[OnAFly]

You would think enough fans would put up a stink about it with them and get the ball rolling with it. Too bad.

So what's the deal with the Seminoles then? Did they get all tribes to vote in?

Is Notre Dame going to need a permission slip from the Prime Minister of Ireland?

This whole thing is ridiculous to me.

[cbrooks]

I was gonna post up some articles last weekend on here but...same old. This logo will drag out until everybody gets sick of hearing it. Right now the only difference is the state of North Dakota voted in the legistrature to make it a law(I may have worded it wrong but you get gest)for UND to keep the name. NCAA was gonna meet with the governor of North Dakota and UND in a public meeting but cancel it saying they haven't change there stance on the logo change. So now the state of North Dakota is involved so this will go on and on to the supreme court.

The Florida state had to pay seminole nation for there name. Not too sure of the details. I haven't heard anything about Sioux nation getting or asking for any money. As it is UND offers schlorship to native americans. Who knows in the future what happens here.

[Mid-Lake Rock]

This battle has been going on too long and there is no end in sight. The university, citizens of the state and elected officials should just come up with a new name. Because the hockey team gets the most coverage and has some national prominence, I suggest a name that honors UND hockey. The University of North Dakota Canadiens.

The jerseys are ready to go.

[OnAFly]

I like it!

[scsavre]

I like it.

Seminoles take home 30% of appareal sales.

Here are some votes for you.

Turtle mountain tribe voted 5_0 to get rid of the name on Wednesday.

Standing rock opposes the name and doesn't feel it should have to vote again.

Plains tribes voted 7 -0 at last weeks tribal convention to get rid of the name.

The ncaa has a signed contrac from und to stop using the name this summer. Get rid of the name already. This just keeps dragging on.

Maybe if und had anybody over there that new any better a few years ago they wouldn't have signed an agreemnt to stop using the name. Maybe the b of e never should have agreed to end the name.

I think this is the year that the sioux get punished. No post season tourny or jersey. Who cares.

This whole thing is dumb.

Oh and the fighting irish isn't racist or offensive cause they are white. Sorry for saying that, but its true.

[OnAFly]

Can't argue with it.

[brmuskie]

The more I hear people telling UND to get rid of the name the more I want them to keep it. People living the closest to the tallest buildings always seem to want to try and tell everyone else how to live their lives.

Turtle Mountain voted against it huh? That's cool since they aren't even Sioux Indians. They are Chippewa.

The Plains Tribes? Seriously? Isn't that just a generic name for all of the tribes that lived on the plains including the Sioux and many others?

[scsavre]

Im with ya. I say keep it and the NCAA should pizz off.

Those were just indian votes from the past week because of the traction this is getting again.

Every name is going to pizz someone off. who cares. I think the name and logo might be the only thing I dont hate about the sioux.

I am pretty dann tired of political correctness. Dont get me going. Ill be banned from the internet.

[Bryce]

What do they really lose by keeping the name?

No hosting NCAA tourney games? Realistically only affects hockey in the forseeable future. Expect I'll be getting some additional fund raising calls.

No using logo at NCAA events? Couple more phone calls and we have a fund for pc jerseys/uniforms when needed.

Don't get me started on what should be done with free NA education. Must be an NCAA issue. I put in a bunch of sweat equity as a Fighting Sioux athlete. During my time there, I never once observed any disrepect to the NA culture due to the nickname. No crowd chants or tomahawk chopping. No dressed up mascot.

[scsavre]

I think most people were worried about the football and other sports. I have no idea there.

The only hockey issue was the Ralph building, but they have found there way around that.

This wouldnt affect hockey at all then. Cant wear a jersey in NCAA, who cares what the Sioux wear when they make the frozen 4 again in 4 years.

[brmuskie]

Unveiling a new jersey during the post season would be cool. I envision all black jersey with just ND on the front and a number on the back. Old school would be pretty cool.

[MinnesnowtaWild]

I used to be all for keeping the UND logo and mascot, but since I have met a couple Native American Dakota and Lakota indians (aka "Sioux") who are now close friends, I have learned why they are a little salty about the thing. They don't really care about the UND deal, but they don't like to be called Sioux Indians because apparently it was a name given to them by whites which means something like little snakes or something along those lines.

It would be similar to a southern US team naming their school the Cotton Pickers or something. Yeah I realize nobody on here will agree with me, but I think Native American people need respect and quite frankly I don't think they get it.

[scsavre]

Ah, arent the Sioux and the Lokota/Dakota totally differnt tribes......bands of indians.....

[Steve Foss]

"]Ah, arent the Sioux and the Lokota/Dakota totally differnt tribes......bands of indians.....

No. Sioux is what whites typically use to describe all the Dakota. It is believed by some to be a corruption of a French word meaning "little snake," and was given to the tribe by outsiders (probably the Ojibwe), which is why many Dakota folks aren't especially excited about the word Sioux.

Dakota/Lakota/Nakota means, roughly, "allies."

Dakota describes the whole group of allied tribes. In that way it is synonymous with Sioux. Within the larger Dakota, there historically have been three basic subdivisions, varying somewhat by location, also to some degree by custom, as well as by minor language differences. Those divisions are/were called the Dakota, Lakota and Nakota.

Also generally (and emphasizing that there are exceptions), the Dakota ended up in North Dakota (Spirit Lake), with some Dakota and Nakota in Minnesota (Mdewakan) and South Dakota (Lake Traverse), and most of the Lakota in South Dakota (Rosebud, Pine Ridge, Cheyenne River, Standing Rock and others.) The Sioux of the Old West (not including those involved in Minnesota's Little Crow Uprising), were almost all Lakota bands.

That's a very basic rundown, and made with apologies to my Dakota friends. Describing language/cultural distinctions is like trying to hit a moving target, since such things are alive and changing even as we speak. As an example, you don't see historians or tribal people use the term Nakota anymore. The three subdivisions I learned about 30 years ago are now more commonly called the Eastern Dakota, Western Dakota and Lakota. The distinctions remain, but the names have changed.

[cbrooks]

Was the Ojibwe enemies of the Sioux Steve? Just wondering why another tribe would name a tribe "little snake".

[Steve Foss]

Yes, they were enemies. But I didn't state positively the origin of the word Sioux because there's still debate on how it actually came to be.

Today, I still hear some Ojibwe laughingly call Dakota people "dog eaters," while the same Dakota laugh back at the Ojibwe with the label "rabbit chasers." Mostly they are just joking about it these days. Tribes that used to feel some animosity for each other in many cases have united to fight a common enemy.

The way white history tells it, the Dakota tribes lived mostly in Minnesota when they were pushed out onto the Prairie by the Ojibwe. This was a few hundred years ago, before the plains tribes got the horse. Once they were on horseback, it was a very different story. There are plenty of Dakota place names in many parts of Minnesota.

Lakota oral tradition placed their origins in the Black Hills.

[cbrooks]

Yeah I heard the story of how the Sioux got chase out of Minnesota. Is there any hard evidence of that or just word of mouth past down through time?

Sorry for the history lesson. i could just as well google this info but I don't hear much about the Sioux history when talking Sioux logo controversy. Its all NCAA, Ralph Engelstad, REA arena. No one ever talks about the Sioux tribe and what it means.

[Steve Foss]

Archeology tells part of the story of native tribal movements before white settlement. Native oral tradition adds to it, and there were quite a few European missionaries and explorers recording what they saw long before the larger wave of settlers moved through.

So today there's a picture of how things were. It's pretty well accepted scholarship, but these things are always open to interpretation and changes as new information comes to light.

Online, Wikipedia does a good job of encapsulating things. Go there and look up Sioux for a lot of interesting reading. Well, interesting if you're interested.

[scsavre]

Minnesotans chased the sioux out and drove them to the plains of nd......sounds like what the gophs used to do to the fighting sioux every winter, and will again this november

[Steve Foss]

"]Minnesotans chased the sioux out and drove them to the plains of nd......sounds like what the gophs used to do to the fighting sioux every winter, and will again this november

Taking us back toward the topic just before this became Indian Studies 101. Thanks, Scott.

BTW, no matter what we call UND next year, the hockey Gophs are gonna be pucking useless again. You know it's true.

[LightningBG]

No. Sioux is what whites typically use to describe all the Dakota. It is believed by some to be a corruption of a French word meaning "little snake," and was given to the tribe by outsiders (probably the Ojibwe), which is why many Dakota folks aren't especially excited about the word Sioux.

Dakota/Lakota/Nakota means, roughly, "allies."

Maybe the tribes should renounce the name themselves, then anyone can take that dirty old name and do as they please.

[solbes]

Wow, I knew a little about the history of the tribes, but I was missing a lot.

+1 for a very informative post Steve!

[zamboni]

I didn't go through the whole thread, but if ND has to get rid of it, so should every other team that has native American titles to their schools.

NCAA would NEVER tell Florida State to do it, guarantee it.

[cbrooks]

Here I thought we were gonna have a intelligent discussion and then Scott had to but in .

Here's a link into the history of who chase who out of Minnesota between the two tribes if anyone is interested

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/tbacig/studproj/a1041/mnansx1800/chippewa.htm

[MinnesnowtaWild]

Glad people are willing to learn about Native cultures and people. I think it is important to understand real Native American history when looking at this topic, instead of just looking at it from a white male sports fans perspective.