Zone 3 APR

[96trigger]

Lakevet, thats twice this year I am going to agree with you. Satan better buy a winter coat.

[Bear55]

Here's your chance to prove me wrong.

PEAT

We have been through this before, you can probably list all the reasons why a herd with a balanced age structures of does and bucks is going to be healthier then a man altered age structure where the great majority of bucks are of a younger age class. I would bet your APR hating biologists would also agree with that as well.

[B. Amish]

third group against apr's...

those that are genuinely concerned about high grading who aren't apart of the other two groups.

apr's are a blinding light. it's never not gained public support after being implemented (not that i know of anyways). after the three years here in mn, the majority will want it to stay and it will probably continue.

i just hope that in 20 years, some of us aren't sitting around the shack at deer camp, looking at past racks on the wall, and looking through past trail cam and hunting photos, and say, "hmm, it sure seems like we don't see as many 10 pointers as we used to.... or, hmmm, we seem to have been getting a lot more bucks with smaller brow tines, i wonder why."

[james_walleye]

Who said you couldn't pick up a bow? No one is forcing you to wait until gun season to have an opportunity.....

[james_walleye]

Wonder how giving those couple thousand bucks with superior genes a 1 year free pass with more breeding might affect genetics. After all, with minnesotas gene base we know that pretty much all of them have that great gene base behind them. Unlike a state like Mississippi for instance which has a genepool run over with 4 year old forkhorns.

[B. Amish]

like i said, it's a blinding light.

[PEATMOSS]

PEAT

We have been through this before, you can probably list all the reasons why a herd with a balanced age structures of does and bucks is going to be healthier then a man altered age structure where the great majority of bucks are of a younger age class. I would bet your APR hating biologists would also agree with that as well.

huh? I really can't figure out what you are getting at here.

[lakevet]

Lakevet, thats twice this year I am going to agree with you. Satan better buy a winter coat.

Maybe we can go for three times and he'll have to get a snowblower too.

lakevet

[RuttenBuck]

Amish -

I understand where you are going with your concerns. However, like I mentioned with the cull buck articles, altering the genetics in free ranging deer is almost impossible. The studies have shown in well-managed situations, culling smaller bucks has not resulted in larger deer in the wild. This is on large ranches where they will get people in to shoot the bucks they want out if possible. The variables are endless and too many unknowns to control and even worry about it.

You mentioned hoping someday we don't look back and say there aren't as many 10 pointers around anymore. Is points the only sign of "good" genetics? Does a smaller racked 8 point yearling have better genetics than a larger racked fork or 6 point yearling? Does a 120 inch 3 year old 10 pointer have better genetics than a 130 inch 3 year old 9 pointer? And since when does the first rack really indicate what potential the deer has? APR's will mostly protect yearlings as very few bucks won't be "legal" by 2 years of age. There are so many variables that play into a bucks rack that genetics should be the last thing we are worried about. So few bucks reach their full genetic potential in MN anyways, why are we worried about them?

I do agree there are better ways manage but we needed change and we got some. Now we can let the traditional hunters get their way at everything again or we can try to protect the little improvement we made. I'm all for letting the 3 year trial play out and look at alternatives in the future.

[Bear55]

huh? I really can't figure out what you are getting at here.

That probably was a little confusing, instead of explained I will just let it die. However I do invite you to read the last couple of posts by RuttenBuck, he seems to have a pretty good handle on the situation and doesn't let emotion get in the way.

[B. Amish]

However, like I mentioned with the cull buck articles, altering the genetics in free ranging deer is almost impossible. The studies have shown in well-managed situations, culling smaller bucks has not resulted in larger deer in the wild. This is on large ranches where they will get people in to shoot the bucks they want out if possible. The variables are endless and too many unknowns to control and even worry about it.

the big difference in culling out spikes and whatever else is it's one hunter making one decision. even on a big ranch, they aren't anywhere near the size of the entire zone 3. and unless the ranch has a fence (which wouldn't be free ranging deer), you'd have the oustide influence that makes the culling arguements invalid.

this is everyone doing the same thing.

read some of the research about culling and you'll see that while you can't predict the future size based on thier first rack, and there is always the possibility of getting a booner from a spike, you will see that percentage wise, a first rack can be used to say that it won't probably be a booner if it's a spike.

i realize that there are lots of variable to the first rack of a buck. like, when it was born, summer nutrition, etc.

but, let's say we have an early spring, excellent growing conditions throughout the summer, and all bucks are born right on time. then we look at all the racks. the racks will be of different sizes obviously. percentage wise, research has shown that smaller racks will probably be smaller at maturity. bigger racks at 1.5 have a better chance to be larger at maturity. these aren't hard and fast rules and there will be exceptions. but they are percentage arguements.

believe me, the arguement to be for apr's if you like big bucks is so so so easy to make. at one time, i thought they were a good idea myself. some will always dismiss the thought of high grading no matter what, but what if it does happen, then what? and like i said, once people fall in love with it because they end up shooting their first trophy, it will be hard to say wait a minute, we did something bad, let's not do apr's anymore.

[RuttenBuck]

Amish -

You are trying to tell the hunters in zone 3 will have a larger impact on genetics even when there are so many different management practices than a well managed ranch that will have a lot more control on a particular chunk of land? I would have to think if anyone had any chance of altering the genetics it would have to be the ranch as it would be controlled and managed. I will stick to my stance of the research I've done. It is almost impossible to alter genetics of free ranging deer even if you manage for it.

Your comments on if everything were the same (birth dates, nutrition, etc.) we could look at the racks then. That is exactly my point - nothing is the same from deer to deer and very hard to control. APR's protect deer with less points and points is a subjective way to judge genetics. I've seen lots of larger racked yearlings with less points than other yearlings over the years and I'm not going to even guess which one has the better genetics.

My hopes after 3 years of APR, the hunting community will realize the benefits of having a better structured age-class of deer. People will enjoy hunting more, and not by just shooting a deer with larger antlers. There will be more chasing and buck activity. I'm sure there are plenty of hunters who haven't seen this activity and it is almost as exciting as pulling the trigger. I'm hoping we do change to something else after 3 years though - but again, I want to see the trial complete as designed so people get a taste of how things could be.

[B. Amish]

Amish -

You are trying to tell the hunters in zone 3 will have a larger impact on genetics even when there are so many different management practices than a well managed ranch that will have a lot more control on a particular chunk of land?

[RuttenBuck]

I'm well aware of the outside influence factor. I'm not talking about a 240 acre ranch, but thousands of acres where outside influence still plays a role, but not as much. Yes, I understand zone 3 is larger than this ranch in question, but the other difference is at the ranch they were "trying" to eliminate certain genetic traits and had no luck.

Interesting you can find quotes and research saying spikes are inferior and I can find other research indicating the complete opposite. We could be here all day quoting articles on what spikes will end up as mature deer and they will contradict each other. Do you think that all of the contradictions can be from all of the unknowns and hard to control variables that determine what a deer's rack will end up as? Sure seems logical to me and hard to argue with.

The bottom line is there are too many unknowns to worry about altering the genetics in 3 years. Until we have a greater number of deer actually making it to maturity to see their full genetic potential, all this worrying is for nothing.

I know you are pro-QDM, but I do kind of find it funny though how some of the traditionalists are now also concerned about antler size. I thought you couldn't eat the antlers, are "inferior" antlers worse eating all of a sudden?

My hunting management philosophies have come full circle in my years of hunting. Started out as a first buck I saw hunter, to a trophy hunter (wouldn't shoot a doe,

and buck had to go on the wall), to a QDM hunter (manage for appropriate numbers and older age class of bucks, habitat improvements, shed hunting, etc.). I think

the QDM approach is the most fulfilling, rewarding and enjoyable one and is also what I think will keep our youth interested in the outdoors and hunting deer specifically.

[B. Amish]

not a chance anything i've described about high-grading will happen in 3 years. i'm concerned about 20 years down the road. because, like i said, i think people will fall in love with this and it will stay. once the public loves something, it gets harder to change it.

[PEATMOSS]

i think people will fall in love with this and it will stay.

And spread . The I-94/Hwy 10 corridor is probably next.

The SHORT TERM bonanza that this will create almost assures that it will be implemented elsewhere.

[PostFrontal]

Pennsylvania DNR:

Biology: Genetic Impacts:

Concerns over genetic impacts of selective harvest are common. Would selecting bucks based on the number of antler points they carried be enough to alter future antler development? Current research is clearly mounting evidence to the contrary.

About 1 in 4 litters will have fawns with different fathers.

Research has shown yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler points and size. Percent of hunters harvesting a buck is similar to previous decades. Yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler development. Research indicates little relationship between a buck’s first set of antlers and those he carries at 4.5 years of age and older. So, using yearling antler points as a harvest criterion should not influence future antler development in the population as a yearling spike buck and a yearling 6-point can have similar sized antlers by age 4.5 years. A few mature males are not dominating breeding. In two different studies, yearling males successfully sired fawns in populations with high percentages of older males. In fact, most males, regardless of age, only sired one litter. Does are regularly being bred by multiple bucks. Initially studied in captive deer, multiple paternity has been documented in every free-ranging white-tailed deer study in which researchers have looked. Populations with different male age structures in different states have seen litters with two or more offspring having different fathers at rates of 20-24 percent. Finally, a buck’s mother contributes half of his genetic characteristics, but nobody can tell what a doe’s contribution to her son’s antlers will be. There is no way to visually evaluate the genetic antler potential of a doe. As a result, 50 percent of the genetic contribution to future antler development is randomly selected in Pennsylvania. Given the complexity of the white-tailed deer’s breeding ecology and high genetic variation, large-scale alteration to Pennsylvania’s deer herd genetics is unlikely.

Hunting: Hunter Success Rates:

Increasing the standard for the harvest of a legal buck with APRs could have reduced the number of hunters that were successful. Tracking hunter success rates over the last 3 decades has shown little change in the percentage of successful hunters. Today, licensed Pennsylvania hunters are as successful harvesting a buck under APRs as their predecessors were 20 years ago under the old antler restriction.

Antler Restriction Report Card

1. Increase buck survival PASS

2. Change breeding timing NO CHANGE

3. Avoid negative genetic impacts PASS

4. Maintain hunter success rates PASS

5. Increase number of adult bucks PASS

6. Increase age structure of buck harvest PASS

7. Maintain hunter support PASS

Hunters continue to support antler restrictions by a large margin. Percentages do not add up to 100% because those who neither support nor oppose are not included.

Hunting: Age structure of Antlered Harvest:

Age structure of the antlered harvest before APRs was about 80 percent yearling bucks and 20 percent adult bucks. With the increase in survival of yearling bucks under APRs, the age structure of the antlered harvest changed to about 55 percent yearling bucks and 45 percent adult bucks. This increase in adult buck harvest has occurred during a time when overall deer populations have declined.

The increased harvest of adult bucks does not necessarily mean more “record book” bucks. Although age structure and number of adult bucks in the harvest has increased, about 75 percent of them are only 2.5 years-of-age. In other words, most of Pennsylvania’s bucks are still being harvested prior to growing their largest antlers.

Hunting: Hunter Support:

Prior to changing to APRs, surveys showed a majority of hunters favored them. Many hunter surveys have been conducted since APRs started in 2002. Would hunter support wane after APRs became reality? Not hardly! In fact, hunter support of APRs has remained steady since their implementation.

Conclusion:

After 6 years, APRs are a success. They have increased buck survival and the buck age structure. They have maintained strong support from hunters. And Pennsylvania hunters are experiencing the same levels of success to which they are accustomed.

[RuttenBuck]

The one flaw I do see with APR's is the lack of a common sense rule. We could argue all day about the genetic affects of protecting what is considered by some as inferior genetics all based on number of points, but that has been beaten to death. So maybe an introduction of a common sense rule would ease the worry of the genetic point arguement. What if we allow shooting what can be perceived as an adult deer with less than 4 points on a side? They would need to have the deer verified and registered by an officer to have legal possession. I think it is absurd that a 200 lb 6 pointer can not be legally harvested. I do however, think they are very few and far between, at least in areas I hunt. I do truely understand the risk of adding rules that can be interpretted differently, as some people will try and take advantage of the system, but these people exist in all facets of life. However, the rule of allowing this perceived inferior genetic deer to be harvested may reduce the threat of "high-grading". And yes, most likely it does have inferior genetics but that is not cut and dry.

[DHost21]

When talking about high grading and stuff you are assuming everyone is gonna shoot the first 4pt side deer they see. There are still plenty of people out there that understand letting a basket buck is what they want to do because they are managing for really big deer so i think high grading is a flawed arguement completely. Yes some people that just want a buck will take the first 8 pt they see and thats gonna happen but I dont think that number will go up too much from right now. For high grading to happen you would have to shoot all the deer with good genes and that is impossible in free ranging deer. The APRs force people to pass on young bucks and that will help the age structure and sure some basket 8s will be taken but no way they will take all of them out and there are still enough people that will pass on basket 8s where it wont effect the population like you say it will with high grading.

I hunt all public land and I still pass on all little bucks due to the chance it makes it through to next year and I get a crack at him then and thats what APRs will do. They will make people pass on most young bucks and yes the people that dont usually pass on young bucks will still take that basket 8 that walks by as soon as it does but they are the same people taking them as of now anyways so I dont see there being any chance high grading could happen and letting the little bucks walk to increase age structure of the herd it just seems like a no brainer and i havent heard 1 arguement that proves its a bad thing. All the arguements against it are opinion arguements and really dont have much biological backing to them at all its just people dont want to be told what to do which is just sad in my opinion

[B. Amish]

All the arguements against it are opinion arguements and really dont have much biological backing to them at all its just people dont want to be told what to do which is just sad in my opinion

the same can be said about the aguements for apr's

[MOSSY]

Why not make it only legal to shoot a buck if it bigger than any you have previously taken then all the horn porn guys will be happy

[PEATMOSS]

Why not make it only legal to shoot a buck if it bigger than any you have previously taken then all the horn porn guys will be happy

BALONEY!!! Most want to kill a "shooter" every year!

Scroll thru some of the other threads where some of these people post pics of their trophy walls.

[RuttenBuck]

If you think about it, supposedly we have been "high-grading" for decades. A spike and yearling 8 pointer come chasing by after a doe in a buck's only zone? Which one gets shot 99% of the time assuming they both present the same clean kill opportunity? QDM hunters and trophy hunters are guilty as well. I know many

people have passed on "good" bucks to get a crack at the "great" buck they have on camera. I understand there may be some age differences in play in some of these scenarios but you get the point. If altering genetics was so prevalent as some are suggesting, you would think by now we'd have seen some affects. With the state archery record getting broken twice in the last couple years, I would have to say our genetics are just fine. And to quote our traditional hunter friends, just look at Outdoor news and all the big bucks that get shot, I don't see a

genetic problem brewing. If you really are worried about genetics, you better think twice before pulling the trigger on that boone and crockett because his days of spreading his gene's are over and you are leaving allegedly inferior deer to breed.

Let's stop focusing on genetics and on things we can control like age and nutrition.

[Getanet]

If you think about it, supposedly we have been "high-grading" for decades. A spike and yearling 8 pointer come chasing by after a doe in a buck's only zone? Which one gets shot 99% of the time assuming they both present the same clean kill opportunity? QDM hunters and trophy hunters are guilty as well. I know many

people have passed on "good" bucks to get a crack at the "great" buck they have on camera. I understand there may be some age differences in play in some of these scenarios but you get the point. If altering genetics was so prevalent as some are suggesting, you would think by now we'd have seen some affects. With the state archery record getting broken twice in the last couple years, I would have to say our genetics are just fine. And to quote our traditional hunter friends, just look at Outdoor news and all the big bucks that get shot, I don't see a

genetic problem brewing. If you really are worried about genetics, you better think twice before pulling the trigger on that boone and crockett because his days of spreading his gene's are over and you are leaving allegedly inferior deer to breed.

Let's stop focusing on genetics and on things we can control like age and nutrition.

It's a Friday afternoon so I might as well stir the pot, but considering state records are apparently being broken with some regularity and the ODN has plenty of pictures of big bucks, wouldn't this point to the fact there must be a decent balance of ages in the current population?

[PEATMOSS]

I could mention that under current practices , we are harvesting across genetic spectrum. I could also reference an interesting study on bighorn sheep that has shown some of the detrimental effects of trophy hunting.

I doubt either would matter to you though.