What are your thoughts on this article on guides in the Brainerd Dispatch?

[kwkfsh]

Val, I am not sure how or where you found out that having a USCG license was not needed on inland waters in MN. You may want to check your sources for accuracy.

MN does not issue pilots licenses to fly aircraft but they are most certainly required.

The following is the response I received from Kim Elverum, DNR Boat & Water Safety Coordinator. I believe he may know what he is talking about.

The requirement for the USCG Motorboat Operator's (Six-Pack)License is
a federal one on waters subject to US jurisdiction, when one is carrying
passengers for hire (sport fishing included). Examples of these waters
in MN include Lake Superior, Lake of the Woods, Leech, Cass, Rainy,
Namakan, Gull, Whitefish, the navigable portion of the Miss., Minn.,
Red, St. Louis & St. Croix Rivers & a number of others. If you carry
more than 6 passengers another type of license is required from the
USCG. For more information on the federal requirements and waters
subject to US jurisdiction contact the USCG Marine Safety Detachment in
St. Paul @ 651-290-3991 or their HSOforum at:
http://www.uscg.mil/d8/mso/stlouis/MSD.St.Paul.htm

The state requirement on sole-state waters (Lakes Mille Lacs and
Minnetonka are two examples) is that if you are carrying passengers for
hire and the boat meets ceratin minimums - you need the Pilot's License
from the MN Dept. of Labor and Industry - Code Division. See their
HSOforum at: http://www.doli.state.mn.us/code.html#Boats

Hope that helps!

Kim Elverum
DNR Boat & Water Safety Coordinator

[kwkfsh]

That is a very interesting article and brings up some very valid points that are seldom mentioned.

Should there be a limit to the number of fishing guides in an area or on a lake? This is not likely to happen as who is to say who has the right to guide and who does not. This has been tried in other areas of the country and has failed on constitutional grounds as each citizen has equal rights to access a states resources.

Making a guide tag his fish is a practical solution. Some states do not allow a guide to fish when he has clients with him, and some states do not allow a guide to retain any fish when he has clients.

Having a guide decal on the boat will be a reality as soon as the state steps in and licenses guides. This is a common practice in many areas of the country. The state licenses virtually everything else and this will not be far behind. The easiest way for state to determine qualifications will probably be for them to require proof of a USCG license in order to be licensed as a guide. This will eliminate the need for having to set up a program of testing, or qualification of their own. This will help to keep them from being held liable in the event of a lawsuit due to the fact that they required demonstrable qualifications in order to issue a license.

JPZ hit the nail on the head in the Brainerd forum. As a guide you are responsible for the human lives you have on board. It is a very important responsibility to take on there should be some way to assure that clients are taking a trip with a qualified operator who has the proper skills and equipment to insure a safe trip.

Valv, the analogy of a cattle rancher is not the same thing because the rancher probably purchased the cattle, whereas the fish belong to all the citizens of the State of MN.

Cliff, I think you are correct in your assumption that licensing would help eliminate the fly by night guides. Anyone who is in tune with the fishing industry in MN has seen the proliferation of “guides” over the last few years. This has the net effect of lowering the value of a guides (your) services.

Chris & Fisky, one way to tell who is qualified is to see if they in fact do have a USCG license. This is the best way to tell who is serious about their chosen occupation. Gull Lake and the Whitefish chain in the Brainerd area are a couple of the waters that a USCG license is required to operate. This is also required on most of the other big lakes in MN. A couple of exceptions being Vermilion, and Mille Lacs. Anyone who guides on these waters and does not have a minimum of an OUPV license is putting his clients at risk for a fine of up to $25,000. The guide can also be fined $25,000 per trip as well as an additional $5,000 fine per trip if not enrolled in a random drug-testing program.

Having the state license and require decals for guides and boats would eliminate the fly by night operators and would raise the level of quality that the angling public would receive for their dollar.

[JP Z]

It is true that the licenses are required on the Gull, Whitefish, etc. It's just that nobody is penalized for not having them......."so why get one if the gov't doesn't care?"

I think you should, just making a point though.

------------------
Tight Lines,
JP Z

[Guest]

KW,
I beg to differ about a lot of what you have said.

There are quite a few USCG licensed guides on Gull. I know this for a fact since I know many personally. Almost all of them HAD to get them for the Governor's open a few years back, and then even then I'm pretty sure the regs have changed but a few still have them.

Also, there are quite a few other lakes in the Brainerd area besides Whitefish and Gull in case you havn't noticed. So to be a guide in that area one does not NEED a USCG lic to be legit. ALSO...if these things are not required by law, how can you say someone is not legit if they dont have them?

I think you are confusing what is needed and what is not concerning PFD's. I'm pretty sure the type 1 reqirement is only for vessels over a certain length and only for boats carrying 6 or more passengers.

I have heard conflicting reports about wether or not one needs a USCG lic at all. It has something to do with boat length and the number of passengers and for most guides, this would not pertain to them. I do know though, that launch captains do need one. But a launch is a lot different than a guide boat.

[Guest]

I also read one of the links you posted KW and it mainly pertains to boiler lic.....

BUT....

5225.6100, subpart 2 reads-
""Boat" means any vessel navigating inland
waters of the state which is propelled by machinery or sails, is
carrying passengers for hire, and is 21 feet or more in length."

As far as I know, there are no guides on inland waters running boats over 21 feet, execpt for Superior, but that is a totally different animal. So, this statute would not apply to most guides.

[guideman]

At a recent meeting of the "Minnesota Muskie alliance" we had officals from the DNR disscussing guide licensing.

They said it was very unlikely in the near future. There isn't money for the
red tape, or the inforcement of such a law.

Wisconsin requires a guide license for all guiding, you go to the bait store and shell out $40 and your a licensed guide. Would that make you feel better if I went out and spent $40 for a paper that said I was a guide?

If all guides had a captains license in Minnesota the cost of a full day guide trip would double. Resort owners are in favor of the system we have now, they would lobby long and hard, to keep it that way.

I have always carried insurance and I have all the "REQUIRED" safty equipment on my boat. The DNR inspects my boat annually for saftey requiments. I have the sticker if you'd like to see it.

If you have been burned by losey guide in the past that is unfortunate however it's buyer beware out there guys.
Ask them for references, ask them if they are insured, wouldn't you do that if you were hiring a contractor?

Don't hire a part time no name guide, I know I wouldn't. Hire a professional as you would for anything else. Guides are
a service business, if they don't provide a good service, they aren't in business long. I know lots of business people with a license, it dosen't make them a failsafe investment.

There are numbers of great guides in Minnesota that will work their butts off for their clients. Grouping us all together is unfair just as it would be unfair to say all salesmen are crooks.

If you want more regulation just don't wine about it, when you have to pay for it. It's a business, if the cost of doing business goes up who do you think is paying for it? Not me my friends!

------------------

Terry "Ace" Sjoberg
aceguideservice.com
Lake Vermilion
Muskies and More.

Pro Staff Member.
Catch-n Tackle.
CKat Custom Muskie rods.
Bearpaws Handpoured Baits
Ohio Pro Lure.
Muskie Nut Tackle.
Big Chimney Muskie Baits.
Marcum.

[Slugo]

Guideman, I most certainly would not wnat to see anything like you decribed Wisc. has. In my opinion that is a tax not a licence. A licence to me would be to indecate that one had the proper safty equptment and knowlage to get his clients home incase of trouble. That would be more my consern.
Is the safty inspection you have done, and/or the insurance, a requirement?

Yea you do need to check out your guides..The one that we had that was so bad was a supr of the moment thing...never again!!!
The best one was on LEach he was an older guy and he never sat down the whole day.I was afraid he would get tossed outcause it was fairly windy. I asked hem why and he told me he had a bad knee and he wouldn't be able to get back up. We didn't catch much fish but had a great time.

[Guest]

Though I personally am not a guide, I can't believe that this could not have passed a real editors desk..lol Anyone notice in the story how guides are bad bad bad floating murders then he interviews a guide with an actual name? and bamm suddenly we are reading about CPR and guides educating people? I would like to know who mr anonymous is.
I would blame the editor if this was actually published.

"""Want to be a fishing guide? Hang a sign in your truck window. There, you're a fishing guide."""

No that makes you a person with a sign in the window of his/her truck, and in Minnesota? To be legal, don't do you need a business license also if you are advertising.

You have to have a guide license on Lake Superior $150.00

"I felt like a mercenary soldier," said the guide, who asked to remain anonymous. "I couldn't justify killing all those fish for profit."
ANONYMOUS FISHING GUIDE

Guides being usually at the top of the sport,don't practice slaughtering the fish,
if thats what Mr anonymous did while he was guiding? Im glad he found something else to do. My conscience would bother me too if I charged people to be unethical about the sport.

"""How many fish do guides kill each year? People hire guides to help them catch fish. People who catch fish like to eat fish.

Just because you have a guide with you does not mean that the fish are going to bite.
Ask any guide any they will tell you of days spent with no fish no pay.

"""If all the people who hire guides rented a boat and fished themselves, a lot fewer fish would be caught and killed.

On the other hand? How many uneducated people kill don't practice CPR in their own boats?

"""there's no disputing that without guides a lot fewer fish would go under the knife.

yes/no because of all the fish that "responsible guides" save, by educating their customers. I think that more are CPR guides today after a shore lunch.

with less uneducated people there would be even less big fish going under the knife.
This is what kills off the population fast.

Permits are a good idea for guides, it can help pay for restocking and possibly have some kind of test to see if they actually know what they are doing?

===================================
Believe 50% of what you see and 0% of what you hear.

[Guest]

I am a strong skeptic. I don't believe much without evidence. Since I have some free time I thought I'd offer a crticial logical analysis of this article:

Claim #1: For starters, guiding is the only "for profit" utilization of a natural resource that's not regulated by the government.

This claim is false. You could easily go pick blueberries in a state forest and sell them.

Claim #2: It's a safe bet that on many guided fishing trips around Brainerd it's the guide who does most of the catching.

This claim is an assertion not a factual claim. It has no evidence backing it. Plus common business knowledge and experience teaches that any good guide is going to help teach their customer to catch fish. It's really boring watching the guide catch when you are not. Customers who catch their own will be more satisfied and be repeat customers.

Claim 3: At least one former Nisswa guide once killed 2,600 walleyes in a year. Not all guides kill that many, but even if every local guide -- and they number around 50 -- killed half that many each year it still would total 65,000 walleyes killed.

Logical fallacy of assumption. The implication is that the number of fish killed is somehow bad. Yet later in the article the author states fish populations are healthy in most places. Experience dictates that the DNR does close fishing on lakes in harm. More importantly, it does not matter how many fish are killed, as long as it is sustainable.

The rest of the article is just conjecture. Should the state require a guide license? Frankly this boils down to an opinion issue. However, the author is trying to justify their position with the above false claims.

The argument is inherently flawed.

[kwkfsh]

Tom, you are free to differ with me as much as you would like. I do however know what I am talking about.

I have never seen anyone who guided on Gull state that they have a captains license. Believe me if they did they would mention it. You can be sure if they don't claim it on their HSOforum, or brochure they are not. It would be a federal offense to claim to have it if you did not.

I also realize that there are many lakes in the area where the license is not required. But how many guides in the Brainerd area do not guide on Gull at times? I would guess that the number is at or close to zero.

As far as the PFD issue you say I think, and I'm pretty sure. I however am 100% certain that Type 1 PFD's are required on vessels for hire. I know this because it is the law.

"Watercraft carrying six or less passengers for hire, and each vessel 40 feet in length or longer not carrying passengers for hire, must have at least one life preserver Type I (Offshore), of a suitable size for each person on board."
http://www.cgaux.org/cgauxweb/manuals/vemanual/veman3.htm

As far as the conflicting reports that you have heard. It has nothing to do with the size of the boat. If you charge money to take people on a motorized boat, on what are considered the Federal navigable waters of the US. You must have the appropriate license from the USCG. (Based on boat size and number of passengers) Anyone who tells you different simply does not have accurate information.

There has been grumbling on this post about wannabe guides taking business and not provided good service. Well the legit guides have brought this on to themselves. If they are not properly licensed they can hardly expect anyone else to follow the rules.

As soon as the legit guides in MN. get properly licensed and expecting others to follow suit they will no longer have to deal with the wannabes taking business from them. They will start getting much more business and they will end up being paid better for it.

If you think that I am wrong you pick a guide who operates on Gull or any other federal water who does not have a USCG license. We will see if we can get his permission to send his contact information and area of operation to the Coast Guard for a compliance check. Hmmm, I would bet there is not much chance of that happening.

[Guest]

KW,
What exactly are YOUR credentials to be an EXPERT on this subject?

From most of your statements, you seem to be going by hearsay when you state-

"I have never seen anyone who guided on Gull state that they have a captains license. Believe me if they did they would mention it. You can be sure if they don't claim it on their HSOforum, or brochure they are not. It would be a federal offense to claim to have it if you did not."

I know for a FACT that there are a number that do. I am not going to go into naming names, but let me tell you that I supervised a marina on one of the largest resorts on the lake and we ran nightly cruises on a large 50 passeneger boat. We hired guides as captains because they HAD THEIR USCG LIC!!! There are at least a good dozen guides that I personally know that have this. So please don't tell me that I don't know what I am talking about.

Believe me, one could easilly make it as a guide and never put a boat on Gull or Whitefish. Last time I checked there were more lakes than those. And often times much better fishing.

It seems to me you have something against guides.

[WallEYES]

GUIDEMAN
You speak of captains licensing for guiding services, I know of 2 guides that are required to have captains licensing to guide in Voyagers National Park (federal park). Is this accually a requirement?

[guideman]

Hey Wa11eyes,
If you hold a coast guard licence you get to call yourself Captain. They are not required in/on most of Minnesota's inland waters.

Despite what you may have read on some other post, Minnesota dosen't require any licence to guide most waters. Some folks just can't deal with that I guess
so they assume we are guiding illegaly.

------------------

Terry "Ace" Sjoberg
aceguideservice.com
Lake Vermilion
Muskies and More.

Pro Staff Member.
Catch-n Tackle.
CKat Custom Muskie rods.
Bearpaws Handpoured Baits
Ohio Pro Lure.
Muskie Nut Tackle.
Big Chimney Muskie Baits.
Marcum.

[ChuckN]

"Gull or any other federal water"

Since when is Gull deemed Federal waters? What is the definition of Federal waters? Just curious, that's all.

[kwkfsh]

Tom,
I am on my third issue of my USCG, Near Coastal, Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels. I am licensed to operate on the Great Lakes, inland waters, western rivers, and near coastal ocean waters up to 100 miles offshore. I have held this license for well over 10 years. I have never claimed to be an expert, but I do know how the law reads and what the requirements are. I also know where I do and do not need a license to operate.

I have taken the physicals, the drug tests, the first aid and CPR courses, the criminal background checks, supplied certified birth certificates and original social security cards,and fingerprints. Studied for, taken and passed the tests regarding the rules and regs as well as documenting well over 1000 days on the water.

It is not hearsay when I say that I have never seen someone who guides on Gull that has claimed having a license, because I have not. This does not mean that there is not anyone who does. It only means that I have not seen it.

If there are a dozen licensed guides that have gone to the time and effort to obtain their license and comply with the law then they should not tolerate the ones who have not done this. Unlicensed guides are taking money from the families of the licensed guides.

Do not try and spin this as I have something against guides as nothing can be farther from the truth. I have guided every year since 1992 and some of my very best friends are fishing guides, lodge owners, and hunting outfitters. They are all however properly licensed.

I do have something against someone unqualified potentially putting the public at risk to make a few bucks. When you get right down to it this is the dirty little secret of a lot of MN fishing guides.

[walleyedan]

Hi! I think the article was good for the dispatch, because that is their job to sell as many newspapers as possible! Was it good for the guides in the area? Probably not, but where do most of their clients come from? All over and the majority don't read the Brainerd Dispatch. But it is pretty bothersome to know that this unnamed person might possibly have forgot where they got their start! Was guiding the start of their successfull career? Or maybe they aren't a career person, hard to say!! But whatever the case, they sure did get the folks up here talking. I think that's what they wanted to do in the first place. Being a guide myself, I think we are a pretty important resource to this area. And we cater to alot of people with alot of money that spend it not only on us!! Plus, I think there are more fish harvested by your local "game hog" than all the guides in the Brainerd area put together!! We educate, they don't!! As far as lifejackets and a license, I have both (a valid Minnesota fishing license and pfd's and a throw cushion)!! Wanna Be's, I used to be one,now I don't know if I Wanna Be!!
Everyone has to start somewhere, that's why it's called the "Land of the Free"!! Sure it sucks to see some 19 year old taking a potential client from a wiley veteran, but TFB (to freakin bad). If it's meant to be, it's meant to be!! So, there it is in my nutshell!! Sorry I am not the novelist some of you are. Have a great opener and keep your "vessel" keel side down!! Tom, thanks for supporting your local guides!!

Walleyedan

------------------
Walleyedan's Guide Service
S&W Bait 371 N Brainerd
Brainerd Area Lakes Fishing
Fish House Rentals, Sales, Storage & Guide Service 218-963-0422 218-839-5598
[email protected]

[Matt Breuer]

Walleyedan, well said! I have been ripped on numerous times for being a "young buck" guide and some people are upset about my guide service taking away clients. Yes, I am young, but you said it, everyone has to start somewhere. I may not have as much experience as some of the other guides in my area, but I have insurance, a comfortable boat, everything needed to have a good time, and I fish almost everyday looking for bites to make my clients happy. I think it's almost an advantage to have a guide who hasn't been in the business as long, chances are they are going to work twice as hard to make sure you have a good time and catch fish!

Down to the article, some of it's ridiculous, some valid. A guide license is a good idea, posting it on your boat, not a good idea. He says he wants this, but then wouldn't more fish be taken from each body of water in his theory? Everyone would know where the fish are biting, not just the guides and their clients. Limiting the number of guides per area or lake is ridiculous, their are already guide wars, that would blow things up!

Newspapers are beginning to ammuse me more and more each week. There was an article in our local newspaper that was written by a guide that said something along the lines of... you shouldn't hire young buck guides, and they ruin it for the old timers. Were they not a "young buck" once upon a time? Were they a bad guide until they were experienced? What makes someone able to call themself experienced?

Just like everything else, this will be argued about until it's dry, but I thought I'd add my .02 cents...

------------------
Matthew J. Breuer
Northcountry Guide Service
[email protected]
-----------------------
Custom Jigs and Spins
Phelps Tackle
Today's Tackle
Stone Legacy
Ice Leaders

[This message has been edited by Matt Breuer (edited 05-12-2004).]

[Guest]

KW,
Well, I wish you would have stated that in the first place. Good credentials, but until it is LAW that you need any type of lic or permit to guide in MN, then I see nothing wrong with it....as long as you don't fish federal waters!!! ...lol

Chuck,
Yea, as long as there is a US Army COE dam on the lake, it is federally controlled by the USCG. Goofy yea, but that's the way it is.

[Gofishleech]

Matt I have no doubt that you are a good guide, I have read many of your post on here and it obvious you love to fish and that is a must to be a guide. However to suggest that "you think" a younger guide is an "advantage over an older guide" and "going to work twice as hard to make sure you have a good time and catch fish" is just not true (in my opinion) and will get you more ripping.

I was a young guide also years back and yes you have to start somewhere and you have done well to use this site and other recourses to promote yourself (including your post that I am responding to) but there is no substitute for experience.

Do not take this post as ripping, it is not.

Gofishleech

[This message has been edited by Gofishleech (edited 05-12-2004).]

[fiskyknut]

I think KW's point from the get go was that there are a few guides that do not have proper documentation for the waters they work, and that this is detrimental to those who have such. Not sure why everyone go so uptight with this. It is a bit of coin, and study to get an OUPV, but it only needs renewal every 5 years and the renewal fees are not too steep....Alot cheaper than being fined!

Opener is almost here, YIPEE!

[Guest]

Are boats used for guiding considered "Commercial" boats?

[walleyehawk]

I went to the Brainerd Dispatch to read the article. Actually, there are two articles. One called the Changing of the Guides, which talks about new, younger guides taking over for the older, more famous guides.

Then as a counterpoint, they have the article copied earlier.

Check out both articles at http://www.brainerddispatch.com/outdoors/

I do disagree with one point in the article where they say one guide killed 2600 fish in a season. That is 7 fish a day, every single day of the year. Unless he was contibuting to the boat limit, that is alot of fish. And never more than two or three limits even on the best day, so there are never 40-50 fish days.

About guides fishing, I think they need to to try other baits and techniques so their clients can catch fish that day.

As far as guides catching/giving fish to clients, if someone pays $2-400, they may need to have something to show for it when they get home. Some people may not see the costs/value of what they are getting for their fee. The cost of the boat, the guides time, etc. A few fish help there. That is part of the clients meat mentality. And that may not be the guides fault.

[This message has been edited by walleyehawk (edited 05-12-2004).]

[kwkfsh]

Any boat that is for hire is considered commercial.

This is determined by the exchange of valuable consideration. It does not even have to be the exchange of money.

Even a 12 ft. boat with a 2 horse motor that is chartered has to follow the rules for commercial vessels.

Those who poo-poo the idea of carrying the proper PFD's are doing so at there own risk. Should there ever be an accident and they are operating commercially without the proper equipment they will have the DOT and the USCG making their life most unpleasant.

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 05-12-2004).]

[early007]

I think it was a well written and entertaining article. At one time our guides in the Brainerd area were killers. But most guides' attitudes has changed. Hopefully all guides are practicing selective harvest now days. During a stretch in the 1980s we had some tremendous fishing here and thats what made Gull Lake famous. After doing the math it wouldn't surprise me if a guide did contribute to killing 2600 walleyes. The new generation of guides we hope has learned from our mistakes in the past.

Jason Erlandson

------------------
Dave's Sportland Bait and Tackle
Sportland Guide Service Hwy 371 & Cty Rd 13
Nisswa MN

218-963-2401

[JP Z]

I believe some of the guides actually kept logs of the fish killed....I belive there were 2 instances of note. 1 was 2,400 fish over a year and the other was 2,200 by to seperate guides. That adds up.

------------------
Tight Lines,
JP Z