organization to help Northern Pike fishery

[merkman]

Maybe it is time to stop arguing over who is right and admit that neither objective is wrong, but not realistic to think we can meet both objectives on the same waters. It would be much more productive to shift the discussion to how to allocate existing resources (lakes) to provide a fair and reasonable distribution of both types of fishing opportunities.

I hear ya walleye101.

That is the root of all these discussions.

Harvest vs Non-Harvest.

To me Non-Harvest based fishing is only one step away from the anti's taking it all away. They can make a very valid point of why fish anyway if you are not there to harvest some?

Maintaining conservation while maintaining our respective sports is a very fine line to walk indeed.

I firmly believe that fishing without responsible harvest only plays into the larger plan of those who wish to take everything from us. Responsible harvest has to be at the core of fishing, with out responsible harvest fishing is just "picking on sea kittens"

[john skarie]

My broad brush isn't any different than the one used by Merk and others that claim most spearers practice look and release, and aren't out to spear big fish.

I'm friends with many spearers in Detroit Lakes, lots of my relatives spear.

They don't make any apologies for wanting to spear big fish, and I can respect the honesty. I also know first hand the damage done to local lakes by prolific spearing of big fish. Anglers don't have the same opportunity to kill fish that don't bite.

They also for the most part don't have a problem with slots or other regs because they know why they are important, and they see that they work.

When spearers (merk et al.) rant against regs that help our fishery because they are "unfair" how can you claim that they care as much about the fishery as others do?? The regs are there to protect and enhance the fishery. Wanting to change regs just for spearers is caring for the fishery in what way exactly?

As our fisheries get more and more pressure with our growing population, and with technology that makes finding and killing fish easier regs are going to get more restrictive to protect the fisheries from ourselves.

That's the reality. Deal with it. Adapt to it and move on.

This isn't about method of harvest either, it's about managing the fishery in the best and most efficient way. What's best for the fishery may not be what is best for you, but that's the way it is.

JS

[reinhard1]

knowone would ban fishing by any means for no reason. hey, how about that suggestion i threw out there mercmam? you didn't just read the first sentence did you? i'm not here to dump on you, just a conversation. good luck.

[merkman]

And the beat goes on.....

The beat goes on.

Anglers don't have the same opportunity to kill fish that don't bite.

JS

Please provide studies.

Even the long range plan quotes studies that do not agree with your assumption.

If you want to find big fish, sitting in one place and waiting for them to stroll by is not the most efficient way of doing it.

Swiss cheesing a lake and dropping a transducer down is much more effective, as is trolling over miles of open water with sophisticated electronics.

If darkhouse spearing really was that much more effective don’t you think more people would do it?

[Cooter]

Does anyone know how many pounds of pike are harvested by spearers each year in MN or other states that allow spearing?

[merkman]

Does anyone know how many pounds of pike are harvested by spearers each year in MN or other states that allow spearing?

According to the MnDNR HSOforum.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/faq/mnfacts/fishing.html

The actual take of northern pike per year by ALL methods in Minnesota is:

3.2 Million Pounds of Northern Pike per year

That is 2.28 lbs of nothern pike per fisherman per year.

[Cooter]

Never seen those numbers before. Do I need to repeat the question?

[AWH]

Hard to believe that Merkman would "answer" a question in a way that has nothing to do with what was asked! Cooter, I do not believe any information like that is available on a statewide level. There are creel surveys that have been done on individual lakes. But that's about it that I'm aware of.

Aaron

[AWH]

So Merkman decides to quote this from the LRMP...

Creel surveys have shown that spearers harvest northern pike at a rate similar to that of summer and winter anglers who are specifically fishing for pike, but because there are fewer spearers, spearing harvests have clearly accounted for fewer fish than angling.

(Pierce and Cook 2000)

[merkman]

And the beat goes on....

The beat goes on.

[AWH]

So merk, that means you wish to continue to take things out of context so that people are less likely to formulate their opinions on facts? Interesting way to "work together".

Here's an abstract from the Pierce and Cook study that Merkman referenced in the LRMP, including some key points that he neglects to share.

Catch rates for spearing (mean = 0.175 fish/h) are similar to harvest rates by anglers that are targeting northern pike. Conflicts between spearers and anglers have led to questions about relative harvests by each group and their effects on northern pike populations. Creel survey data since 1980 show that summer and winter angling account for most of the northern pike harvest. Spearing accounted for 15% of the average yield of northern pike by number, but spearing is selective for the larger fish. In comparison with population estimates, spearing removes a small proportion of the total population and biomass of northern pike but an increasing proportion of fish with increasing size. Recreational angling, by comparison, removes an even greater proportion of all fish sizes in a population. Management designed to improve the size structure of northern pike populations will need to be directed at reducing harvest by all methods.

So what are the facts that we can take from this that Merkman wants to sidestep and ignore? Let's allow the facts to speak for themselves. No need to skew them by taking things out of context and making up a warped sense of reality.

One thing that the facts make crystal clear is that we need to be more restrictive on what is harvested by both spearers and hook and line anglers when it comes to northern pike. Loosening things up to allow for less restrictive harvest will not have long range benefits to any of us.

Aaron

[merkman]

including some key points that he neglects to share.

Aaron

[AWH]

I claim that a darkhouse spearer can not practice look and release? Wow, thanks for letting me know. I didn't know that about me!

Since we agree on your last point, Merk, let's start there. Since all methods are part of the problem, what benefits would we gain by being less restrictive with spearing (which is what you want)?

Aaron

[AWH]

I see that you edited your post after I replied, Merk. Interesting that you try to tell everyone what I said, yet I was simply quoting from the study that you cherry picked from earlier. I didn't share my interpretation of any of it. Just thought it would be good to give folks the opportunity to see the full context of those cherry picked parts that you provided.

Do you find it at all ironic that you will reference a study to argue your point, then argue against that same study as if it's flawed?

Aaron

[jeffreyd]

Merk, so is your overall complaint about the fact that the muskie guys get to stop you from fishing on 26 lakes? Or that the regulations are much tighter for DH than for hook/line? Or that you do not want any management on any waters in the state?

[B420]

Jeffreyd,

It's obvious Merk wants nothing to do with any sort of management for pike on our Mn waters. Take a quick stroll though the Spearing photo gallery and you can see all the "small ones" spearers harvest. Seen Merk a couple times on there with fish that are well over the 24" he claims to prefer to spear!

http://www.hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1603260/5

[reinhard1]

thank you for the post. i looked through it and was dissapointed to see all the large pike speared. they paid for the licence and can harvest what they please as long as it is leagal. the only thing i can do personaly is set an example to my grand kids about catch and realease and keeping smaller fish for the table of any species. my two daughters are also doing the same. good luck.

[walleye101]

Maybe it is time to stop arguing over who is right and admit that neither objective is wrong, but not realistic to think we can meet both objectives on the same waters. It would be much more productive to shift the discussion to how to allocate existing resources (lakes) to provide a fair and reasonable distribution of both types of fishing opportunities.

Quote merk

"I hear ya walleye101.

That is the root of all these discussions.

Harvest vs Non-Harvest.

To me Non-Harvest based fishing is only one step away from the anti's taking it all away. They can make a very valid point of why fish anyway if you are not there to harvest some?

Maintaining conservation while maintaining our respective sports is a very fine line to walk indeed.

I firmly believe that fishing without responsible harvest only plays into the larger plan of those who wish to take everything from us. Responsible harvest has to be at the core of fishing, with out responsible harvest fishing is just "picking on sea kittens"

You hear me, but then continue to argue that your point (harvest management) is right, and the other side (quality management) is wrong.....and the beat goes on!

[merkman]

I hear ya walleye101.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%20hear%20you

[Mid-Lake Rock]

Jeffreyd,

It's obvious Merk wants nothing to do with any sort of management for pike on our Mn waters. Take a quick stroll though the Spearing photo gallery and you can see all the "small ones" spearers harvest. Seen Merk a couple times on there with fish that are well over the 24" he claims to prefer to spear!

http://www.hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1603260/5

On page 4 alone there is a 36", 37.5" and 38". After reading this thread I thought darkhouse spearing was about harvesting smaller fish for the table and possibly a "once in a lifetime" trophy. These aren't trophy fish and they are not small.

The beat goes on, the beat goes on.

[OnAFly]

I've been reading this post, mostly for laughs. After hearing so much of the "spearers don't target fish any bigger than anglers" lines, I was inclined to think maybe that's true.

After looking at the photos in the spearing forum, that doesn't seem to be the case. Looks more like an average of about 28 inches with lots of BIG dead fish.

Wasn't a fan of spearing to begin with, much less of a fan no.

[john skarie]

The meat and pototoes of this discussion is being lost in talking about who kills more or more big ones.

The fact of the matter is that nobody is allowed to intentionally kill pike within slots and has to adhere to whatever regs are posted to protect the fishery from fishing/spearing pressure.

Every aspect of hunting and fishing has changed over the years to prevent our resources from crashing. You can find coutless examples of what people "used to do" that they can no longer do.

It's time to quit the "it's not fair" argument and grow up.

I've had to change how I fish, where I fish and what I can fish for in MN, Canada and out West. There are places I can no longer use live bait, barbed hooks or keep any fish at all. Seasons have changed and trips that used to be annual no longer exist.

That's all part of the game.

Merk, your self-pity is only going to make people sick of your posts.

The way you fail to interpret data and studies with any logic does nothing to further your position that spearers shouldn't have to abide by our current laws regarding pike in MN.

Whatever.

JS

[Gordie]

It's time to quit the "it's not fair" argument and grow up.

I think its time to Start an Organization to help start an Organization to Help the Northern Pike fishery.

It is sad to see all the bickering going on back and forth and you guys are not looking at the big picture and the only thing that will suffer thru this is the Northern Pike and we as sportsmen will be the losers.

SO... let the saga continue

[jeffreyd]

sure is great to see that all of Merk's pictures are off the weblink in the spearing section. I guess his point was made and someone caught him. Oh well maybe sitting in the dark causes blindness.

[merkman]

sure is great to see that all of Merk's pictures are off the weblink in the spearing section. I guess his point was made and someone caught him. Oh well maybe sitting in the dark causes blindness.

Yep,

Those pics suffered the same fate as my lists of muskie waters, slot limit waters, and darkhouse spearing ban waters on the spearing forums did.

Well, I guess it appears I am not a "sportsman" afterall.

As a mater of fact I am not so sure I even want to be a "sportsman" anymore.

Thanks for your time.

Enjoy your resource.

And good luck in the future.