The gift of the deer tag vs trophy bucks

[Bear55]

I don't really see you guys offering up any PROOF that I am wrong either. Just because you know a family or saw a few bucks on the road. Thanks for noting the extreme small sample size Getanet because we need to at least work with some larger numbers before making our best guess. I can at least show you some BC and PY numbers that prove WI shoots far more mature bucks then MN which leads me to believe they do a much better job of letting young bucks go.

Its not like these big buck stats have magic pixie dust in the soil that grow huge deer. They just let them grow older then we do.

http://www.huntbuffalocounty.com/files/2002_0502_01lg.jpg

[Big Dave2]

advances in hunting gear have made us far more efficient hunters.

Why isn't anyone pushing to get rid of the advanced hunting gear then?

[PEATMOSS]

They also shoot lots more deer. The reason I have been trying to research info-(and by the way thanks for being the only one who contributed to this effort)- is to compare things like what proportion of the bucks killed in Wisconsin were trophies. It would stand to reason if they kill x amount more deer than we do than the fact that they shoot x number more trophies should be insignificant.

[nonteepical]

Iowa and Wisconsin's annual buck harvest dosen't consist of 70% 1.5 year old and younger bucks, they're in the 40-50% range, meaning they have an older age class of bucks and that they are more selective than minnesota hunters. Having every hunter tag their own buck, and not letting trigger happy uncle buck fill the partys tags, will help increase our deers age structure.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I don't really see you guys offering up any PROOF that I am wrong either. Just because you know a family or saw a few bucks on the road. Thanks for noting the extreme small sample size Getanet because we need to at least work with some larger numbers before making our best guess. I can at least show you some BC and PY numbers that prove WI shoots far more mature bucks then MN which leads me to believe they do a much better job of letting young bucks go.

Its not like these big buck stats have magic pixie dust in the soil that grow huge deer. They just let them grow older then we do.

http://www.huntbuffalocounty.com/files/2002_0502_01lg.jpg

Bear, re-read what you just posted above. Now turn it around and tweak some of the wording and it's exactly what I would say back at ya about the assumption that WI and IA hunters are more prone to passing on smaller deer then MN hunters. Where's your proof? That graph put out by one of the, no, THE best county in the world for producing and hiding big bucks? We all have been schooled around here about how any graph or stat can be tweeked to fit ones agenda. I'm going off of a lot of people that I know that hunt in WI and the 3 hrs I spend driving through WI on their opening day to form my opinion. Niether of us really know, however, and there really is NO WAY to find out. Your statement has absolutely no more validity then mine!

I'll also go back to what I ended my last post with. HABITAT and FOOD and a POST-RUT hunt are why WI & IA put out more Booners then MN, PERIOD! Compared to MN as a whole, these 2 states have TONS OF PRIVATE LAND, great habitat for growing trophies AND CORN, CORN, and a lot more CORN!

But they still get to party hunt and give the gift of a tag, right?????? That is, afterall, what the point of this whole post was about!

So why ban cross-tagging?

[LightningBG]

These numbers just don't tell us anything definitively.

Look at some of the anomalies:

Vermont and New Hampshire. One has reasonable high numbers, one has almost none.

Long Island New York, great numbers, who knows why?

NE Wisc. good, but UP Mich. not so good.

Eastern Montana, some counties great, some none, right next to each other.

Metro MN has high numbers... do you really metro hunters are the let them pass until next year type?

There are so many factors involved I wouldn't even know where to start giving an accurate statistical analysis. High overall harvest producing more trophy bucks because there are more people after the trophies that are there? Low hunter numbers producing trophy bucks because they have more opportunity to grow up?

Baiting? WI has baited for a long time (except southern now). Maybe the increased nutrition from long term baiting is growing trophies.

Reporting levels could be very different? WI could have a culture that values being in the book while other states don't give a rats *** about records. Heck, maybe some local restaurants are offering a free meal for 4 people with a entry into the record books. Could be anything.

The amount of data required to produce an accurate analysis is beyond me.

[Bear55]

I'll also go back to what I ended my last post with. HABITAT and FOOD and a POST-RUT hunt are why WI & IA put out more Booners then MN, PERIOD! Compared to MN as a whole, these 2 states have TONS OF PRIVATE LAND, great habitat for growing trophies AND CORN, CORN, and a lot more CORN!

But they still get to party hunt and give the gift of a tag, right?????? That is, afterall, what the point of this whole post was about!

So why ban cross-tagging?

So all we need is corn hu? I should tell all those guys in NE MN who have shot Booners over the years, they must be mistaken and that they actually shot a moose? You can have all the corn in the world but if you shoot every buck at 1.5 you aren't going to grow big bucks. You guys make it sound like we have some great handicap compared to the habitat of other states, I say [PoorWordUsage], we have some of the finest habitat and genetics in the world if we would just let the deer grow up you would see the results.

Listen I'm not jumping off the deep end making wild comments, is it really that hard to believe that a a greater number of hunters in WI and Iowa pass young bucks then MN hunters do? All the best habitat in the world isn't going to produce a BC buck if they don't get to the proper age.

This thread got off topic about a page back, I've already address cross-tagging in a previous post.

[Bear55]

They also shoot lots more deer. The reason I have been trying to research info-(and by the way thanks for being the only one who contributed to this effort)- is to compare things like what proportion of the bucks killed in Wisconsin were trophies. It would stand to reason if they kill x amount more deer than we do than the fact that they shoot x number more trophies should be insignificant.

PEAT I will agree if that is the case, WI does have more deer then us but they also have more hunters too so you might have to adjust your number per hunter or something along those lines. It too bad that all the info we would need is pretty much impossible to compile so we have to work with whatever number we can find and make some less than perfect guess work.

[nonteepical]

Living with Blank Buck Tags

For hunters of all management philosophies, the most familiar Cornerstone of QDM is Herd Management, and underneath this Cornerstone the most familiar goal is the protection of young bucks. Mandatory antler regulations have led some hunters to believe that this Cornerstone of QDM is all about antlers, but for the QDMA, passing young bucks is about building numbers of bucks in all age classes. With a complete “age structure” among bucks, many benefits are realized, only one of which is larger antlers. Most hunters are easily attracted by these potential benefits. What is often difficult is overcoming the social barriers to this Cornerstone of QDM.

For instance, I wish I had a dollar for every article I’ve seen in prominent national hunting magazines aimed at helping you get your “last-minute” buck. You usually see urgent hype on the cover of late-season issues, including teasers like: “Fill your buck tags before time’s up!” The underlying message: If you haven’t killed a buck by now, you should be so desperate that you need a Top-10 list of ways to stick or shoot anything wearing antlers. In other words, if you don’t “tag out,” you fail.

Of course, these magazines are speaking to the traditional deer hunter who truly may feel that a season has been wasted if they didn’t get a buck. Any buck. Not that there’s anything wrong with it! I respect a fellow hunter’s right to follow a different philosophy, as long as they hunt legally and ethically. However, traditional hunters face a landslide of social influences that work against any inclination to try something different. Articles about pulling out a last-minute victory over blank buck tags are only the tip of the iceberg.

Why not cover-teasers like this instead: “Top-10 rewards of a complete buck age structure!” As young bucks survive hunting season, reach older ages, and an age structure begins to develop, natural behaviors emerge or become more common and more noticeable. Scrapes are more numerous, rubs are larger, and rut competition becomes more intense. In the woods, you witness fights among bucks and see more bucks chasing does. You learn more about buck behaviors and social interactions simply from having more opportunities to watch live bucks of all ages in the field, and you gain skill at estimating their age and antler quality. Overall, you are more satisfied with your hunting experience. I’m not just spouting the company line. I’m an eyewitness.

Of course, to get there you will probably collect a couple seasons’ worth of blank buck tags, if not more. Far from badges of failure, these are your tickets to better deer and better deer hunting. They are symbols of the choices you are making today to enjoy tags filled by better deer tomorrow. In a successful QDM program you may still be left holding empty buck tags from time to time; producing a mature buck and killing a mature buck are altogether different challenges. But the total package of benefits will be a trade up for most hunters.

Another bonus is greater success at finding shed antlers this time of year. Sheds are physical evidence of bucks that survived hunting season and proof of QDM achievement. Take them home and hang them on a nail along with your blank buck tags from the past season. They represent an investment.

If you’re new to QDM, you will find that ending a season without a buck to your credit is hardly worth a mention in a QDM camp. Maybe that’s because sunset on the last day of hunting season is not a closing window of opportunity for a Quality Deer Manager. There is no off-season under QDM. Tomorrow there will be things to do to create a quality landscape for deer. And for myself and many QDM fans I know, these pursuits bring as much reward as filling a buck tag.

[LightningBG]

We could always just ban hunting all together for 5 years. That should produce some monsters.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

So all we need is corn hu?

No, but it helps. As does great habitat that is not hevily pressured because it's locked up from public access.

If you want to take this and turn it into yet another QDM horse beat-down, go ahead. Not me!

The point of this post was to show how pointless it is to go the route of banning cross tagging to get to the QDM utopia. You guys constantly throw things out about how great all the other states are and then go on to basically say they are of superior intellegence then MN hunters..... In the end, what is the one common thread from the other states that differs from MN? Post-Rut hunting season!

In the end that's what your focus should be exclusively set on. Get the hunt out of the rut and leave the rest alone. Our terrible, sinful, satanic "meat-hunting" hunting parties can continue to help fill each others tags so we can get our flesh, and the God-like Bone collectors can have more bone to go around so they no longer have to put in the amount of time to actually hunt one down!

It's a compromise this evil meat hunter is willing to make!

[Bear55]

But they still get to party hunt and give the gift of a tag, right?????? That is, afterall, what the point of this whole post was about!

So why ban cross-tagging?

Like Trigger had mentioned earlier, cross-tagging was started because of very few doe tags and a very low deer population. It allowed people, many who depended on venison to have a better chance to bring some meat home. With MN deer population around a million deer according to the DNR its hardly needed any more.

I really see party hunting it as a way for someone to shoot multiple bucks for themselves or their group and take hunting opportunities away from other hunters or even hunters in their own group. You guys can glorify party hunting all you want but I don't see one guy shooting multiple bucks as part of our hunting heritage. A lot of us QDM guys get labeled as greedy hunters but honestly who sounds like the more greedy hunter, the guy who tagged 2 bucks in the past 10 years or the guy who won't share his best stand and shot between 10-20 bucks in that same time span?

[BRULEDRIFTER]

You're hung up on the bad apples that take advantage of the party hunt. Like I said earlier, passing a law isn't going to change that! It's a unenforceable law anyway. Just like everything else, the people that are going to do it will do it no matter what law is put in the books!

[LightningBG]

Another thing is. For those who are meat hunters and strictly meat hunters. They will just stay out there longer.

I've been in parties in other states where we were sitting there until everyone (just 3 of us for the last couple years) had a deer. Not my land, not my choice. (i guess I could have went without, but that was unlikely). Anyways. One of the guys is there for meat. He doesn't even really like personally taking a deer that I'm aware of, but he isn't going to go home until he has one. They rely on that food source throughout the year. So one year, opening morning 2 nice bucks walk up together towards my stand. I drop them both right there. Go grab my buddy, he's thrilled, we tag em, clean em. Third guy gets one before we're done cleaning and we're headed home by noon.

No matter if I would have shot it or him, it would have been shot sooner or later that week. It was just a matter of time spent on getting it done.

I guess what I'm trying to say it. Cross tagging doesn't always mean more deer are being taken, sometimes its the same amount in a shorter time.

[Getanet]

Here's something I haven't seen discussed. If we’re going to look at other state’s P&Y/B&C numbers as proof they have more selective hunters and better hunting traditions let’s also be clear that many of these states are full of private hunting preserves where you're all but guaranteed one of these deer for the low low price of $4-6K+. Below are direct quote I've found from some of these private preserves in various states such as Missouri, Iowa, Illinois and even WI that come right out and say nearly ever deer shot there goes into the books.

I would expect these states to have higher numbers of P&Y/B&C with all these private reserves dedicated to putting hunters within arms reach of a monster buck.

Missouri

•We have a minimum of 130" on our bucks.

•One out of every 5 hunters harvests a Boone and Crocket Class deer and 3 out of every 5 harvest at least a 150 inch deer.

•You can expect to see Deer in the 130 to 150 range often, with a chance to take bigger Deer in the 170 to 180'S.

Iowa

•150" minimum with a 90% opportunity rate.

Illinois

•Our opportunity rate at a pope and young class buck at 40 yards or less over the last 5 years is 80%

•85% of our hunters had an opportunity at a hunter estimated 150 class buck or better, inside of 20 yards at this time.

Wisconsin

•Normally a 145 to 150 class deer would sell for $4000 and a 160 to 169 deer would sell for $6,000. With this hunt, any deer can be shot for $4,000

•If you are looking for a Whitetail 110-220 green gross B.C. weighing 200-325 pounds give us a call.

[Bear55]

You're hung up on the bad apples that take advantage of the party hunt. Like I said earlier, passing a law isn't going to change that! It's a unenforceable law anyway. Just like everything else, the people that are going to do it will do it no matter what law is put in the books!

Yes lets give up on all game laws because people will do what they want anyway. There is no way for legal party hunting to be enforced now, do we really know if every party hunting shot deer was taken legally? I wonder how many times the hunter who's tag is used never leaves camp, I would be willing to bet it happens thousands of times. There is no way to enforce it either way so don't use that as an excuse.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Look, I know I'll never change your mind, and you'll never change mine. Deer hunting just means different things for us. Sure, I'd love to shoot a big buck, and I know I will someday, I'm sure it'll happen sooner then later as I mature as a hunter. But I'm not in the mindset of restricting and taking away from the true meaning of what the hunt is truly about to get to where you want to be. I like having choices on how I want to utilize the resources Mother Nature has provided for us. If I want to shoot the first buck I see, that should be my right to do so.

I think a lot of this QDM push has some good points and biologically makes some sense. However, I'm just not in the game exclusively for the bone. The bone is quite a bit down the list in my order of what makes a successful, fun hunt. It's too bad it's so high on others list and creates the tension and division between the hunting community we see here on this board all too often.

I've been down this endless road here too many times, and I am not going to get sucked in any farther in a QDM pi$$ing match.

Peace out!

[InTheNorthwoods]

Here's something I haven't seen discussed. If we’re going to look at other state’s P&Y/B&C numbers as proof they have more selective hunters and better hunting traditions let’s also be clear that many of these states are full of private hunting preserves where you're all but guaranteed one of these deer for the low low price of $4-6K+. Below are direct quote I've found from some of these private preserves in various states such as Missouri, Iowa, Illinois and even WI that come right out and say nearly ever deer shot there goes into the books.

I would expect these states to have higher numbers of P&Y/B&C with all these private reserves dedicated to putting hunters within arms reach of a monster buck.

Animals taken on a preserve are not eligible and do not count towards P&Y and B&C records.

As to the guided hunts that advertise high opportunity rates at quality P&Y and B&C animals are a sign of two things: (2) Management practices limiting the harvest of young animals works, and (2) they are often full of you know what and inflate their numbers.

[InTheNorthwoods]

Look, I know I'll never change your mind, and you'll never change mine. Deer hunting just means different things for us. Sure, I'd love to shoot a big buck, and I know I will someday, I'm sure it'll happen sooner then later as I mature as a hunter. But I'm not in the mindset of restricting and taking away from the true meaning of what the hunt is truly about to get to where you want to be. I like having choices on how I want to utilize the resources Mother Nature has provided for us. If I want to shoot the first buck I see, that should be my right to do so.

I think a lot of this QDM push has some good points and biologically makes some sense. However, I'm just not in the game exclusively for the bone. The bone is quite a bit down the list in my order of what makes a successful, fun hunt. It's too bad it's so high on others list and creates the tension and division between the hunting community we see here on this board all too often.

I've been down this endless road here too many times, and I am not going to get sucked in any farther in a QDM pi$$ing match.

Peace out!

Fair enough Brule. Don't blame you one bit, as I said earlier, there is no harm in disagreeing on these things. I hope you get your opportunity at a MN bruiser this season.

[Getanet]

Animals taken on a preserve are not eligible and do not count towards P&Y and B&C records.

As to the guided hunts that advertise high opportunity rates at quality P&Y and B&C animals are a sign of two things: (2) Management practices limiting the harvest of young animals works, and (2) they are often full of you know what and inflate their numbers.

Are you sure about statement #1? I don't know much about it, but all I've been able to find are the rules of Fair Chase prohibiting fenced in animals. None of the game reserves I quoted are fenced in. A Google search also has this from the MN DNR site, although the page is down "Though deer shot in fenced game farms don't qualify as Boone and Crockett records, bucks hunted in unfenced preserves do, if taken according to the club's ..."

As for point #2. Yes, they prove that if you have thousands of acres of private land, manipulate the land so there are optimal food sources, and then micro-manage it by limiting the number and size of animals harvested you will wind of up with bigger bucks.

[LightningBG]

As for point #2. Yes, they prove that if you have thousands of acres of private land, manipulate the land so there are optimal food sources, and then micro-manage it by limiting the number and size of animals harvested you will wind of up with bigger bucks.

I would totally agree with that.

If I a 5 mile x 5 mile block of land (yes i know that's a bunch, but not unheard of in rural areas), where I could plant food sources, water, bedding areas, minerals, and privacy. Cull the animals that aren't top notch. I have a feeling I could start pulling B&C and P&Y bucks off of it every year within a few year, greatly affecting overall numbers.

[lakevet]

" the gift of the tag" Do you remember why crosstagging was legal?? Do you really? It was because not everyone got a coveted doe tag. Are there people out there that can't get their own buck tag? Are we in a lottery area for buck tags?

Dad, "Here son, take my buck tag, you shot a nice one, you can have it"

Son, " Thanks dad, but I can use mine."

I don't understand the need to give someone a tag when they have their own. As for being done hunting when you limit is full, that happens to me more often than not. I still get a lot of enjoyment from checking in with my family and friends who aren't done. It truly is not the worst thing in the world to be done. In most cases, you don't have to be done if you don't want to. There have been many years that I just sit on a doe tag so I can still be in the woods with everyone else, even though I had opportunities to fill out. You don't have to shoot the first, or every deer that walks by.

During the doe lottery area, crosstagging was often needed just to put venison on the table, this is not so in the areas that this is taking place. Not everyone was able to shoot a doe.

Lakevet, I value your opinion, you are very passionate about it. Nothing has changed yet for you. I don't know if it will. Lets just see how zone 3 pans out. Might be successful, might not. I like that we are trying.

This post points out a fundamental problem with these discussions. Accurate information. Cross tagging has been legal in Minnesota for a long time. My 91 year old uncle has legally cross tagged deer in Minnesota his whole life. So has my 79 year old Dad. Cross tagging did not originate with doe permits, it preceded it by decades. Doe permits introduced in the 1970's did fundamentally shift hunters mindsets from being deer hunters to "gotta get a buck, any buck" hunters. This persists mindset persists today. Cross tagging was not introduced due to the doe permits system being started. It existed long before that. Even those in the DNR often are younger and when asked don't have a grasp of the reasons rules were originally in place. An example is how the muzzleloading season started. The DNR fought it until they were convinced by a small group of muzzy hunters that muzzy hunters would not result in over harvest of deer. Over harvest of deer by muzzy hunters was the big fear the DNR had about the season. Muzzy hunters would give up hunting regular firearms to limit the number of hunters in Muzzy season. This worked extremely well for years to limit hunter numbers because most wouldn't give up the regular hunt. Harvest was minimal by muzzy hunters. Then you get a change in DNR, loose the memory of why things are the way they are. Present DNR management didn't grasp this and rushed headlong into letting all hunters hunt both regular firearms and muzzy season contributing to an over harvest of deer in the SW and increased restrictions for muzzy hunters. The very thing their predecessors at the DNR warned about!!! If they had a grasp of the original intent and structuring of muzzy season (choose muzzy or regular firearms ,not both, so pressure on deer is manageble), muzzy season would not have contributed to over harvest of deer in the SW MN would not have happened. If you don't deal in facts you can't build a credible argument and end up creating more problems.

Thanks for a civil discussion!

lakevet

[lakevet]

Like Trigger had mentioned earlier, cross-tagging was started because of very few doe tags and a very low deer population. It allowed people, many who depended on venison to have a better chance to bring some meat home. With MN deer population around a million deer according to the DNR its hardly needed any more.

I really see party hunting it as a way for someone to shoot multiple bucks for themselves or their group and take hunting opportunities away from other hunters or even hunters in their own group. You guys can glorify party hunting all you want but I don't see one guy shooting multiple bucks as part of our hunting heritage. A lot of us QDM guys get labeled as greedy hunters but honestly who sounds like the more greedy hunter, the guy who tagged 2 bucks in the past 10 years or the guy who won't share his best stand and shot between 10-20 bucks in that same time span?

Again incorrect info as to when crosstagging started. see above post.

The gift of the tag is given not taken. Please don't lump all party hunters in with the guy who won't share his hot stand and grabs others tags, just as you don't want QDM guys to all be lumped with the guy who chews out his young son for shoot a buck that didn't make book.

lakevet

[lakevet]

No, but it helps. As does great habitat that is not hevily pressured because it's locked up from public access.

If you want to take this and turn it into yet another QDM horse beat-down, go ahead. Not me!

The point of this post was to show how pointless it is to go the route of banning cross tagging to get to the QDM utopia. You guys constantly throw things out about how great all the other states are and then go on to basically say they are of superior intellegence then MN hunters..... In the end, what is the one common thread from the other states that differs from MN? Post-Rut hunting season!

In the end that's what your focus should be exclusively set on. Get the hunt out of the rut and leave the rest alone. Our terrible, sinful, satanic "meat-hunting" hunting parties can continue to help fill each others tags so we can get our flesh, and the God-like Bone collectors can have more bone to go around so they no longer have to put in the amount of time to actually hunt one down!

It's a compromise this evil meat hunter is willing to make!

It's a win-win deal...I vote yes. Return the hunt to after the peak of the rut where it used to be in Minnesota and is now in Wisc and Iowa. The DNR will say its not completely post rut, so you just say past the peak of the rut. It will mean that you big buck hunters will have to hunt bucks that haven't had their brain switched to "stupid" by the lure of an in heat doe and a ton of testosterone and frustration. It worked in the past. The idea of hunters letting little bucks walk voluntarily is growing. Besides, if an area reverts to doe permits, hunters could shoot up a bunch of "saved " bucks in one season of rut hunting. Banning cross tagging would have very little effect in saving little bucks in that situation. A post peak of the rut hunt would save more bucks because more bucks wouldn't have the "stupid" switch flipped on!

lakevet

[nonteepical]

my nontypical way of thinking is that hunting post rut won't make that much of a difference. we hunt the peak of breading when the does are ready, in other words lockdown with very obvious suppressed rutting activity, the older bucks are locked on a doe and don't move untill she moves,they arent out checking scrapes and chasing like they are pre-rut and post-rut looking for another doe.the year and a halfs are moving but they haven't figured out exactly why yet. just my nontypical 2cents (worth a quarter)