The gift of the deer tag vs trophy bucks

[lakevet]

My 13 yr old just asked me why the guys who want to ban buck cross tagging don't like kids shooting bucks on their Dad's tags. I also wonder why, when the regulation (banning buck cross tagging) isn't going to have much impact:

"The regulation likely won't change the harvest of antlered deer much - about 7 to 10 percent of successful hunters kill two bucks-but: 'I have unabashedly said that if you want more mature bucks in the population, why do we let people shoot bucks for each other?" Cornecelli said."

Outdoor News 6/18/10

Why do we let people shoot bucks for each other?

It is simple. We are deer hunters who have been trying to keep a tradition in our family that is over 100 years old on the same piece of Minnesota land. It is a land that has always had timber wolves and deer and in more recent history humans. Many hunters unfortunately have long ago lost that type of connection to the land and each other, or never had it. We do our best to let those (kids and seniors and those who have health issues that are life shortening) get the best and most opportunities to harvest deer. I have been called stupid for letting someone else fill my tag. I don't care. I just hope I can continue to give someone I care about the gift of my tag. I learned to give the gift of the tag by being given it as a child. That was in the days of bucks only and rare doe permits. The ultimate gift at that time was the "gift of the antlerless permit". Now it is the buck tag. Unfortunately there are forces at work that now are systematically dismantling my family's long standing tradition of giving someone else the gift of the tag.

"It's not a function of breaking up the party or forcing you to leave the woods when you are successful," Cornicelli said. "The intent is simply to shoot and tag your own buck."

Outdoor News 6/19/10

It is taking away the gift of the tag.

We live in a very self centered, me first, look at me, its mine society. My hunting photo album is 99% group pictures. What's in your album? We have had selfish hunters join our group. It take a year or two for them to understand the gift of the tag. Selfishness is so ingrained. Once they experience the "gift of giving", they never turn back.

Lakevet

P.S. Could it be that the gift of the tag is why we have such a high recruitment and retention rate of hunters in our group for over 100 years in spite of high and low deer populations and with needing " more mature bucks in the population" ? Naw, we gotta get more trophy bucks out there to accomplish that.

[goblueM]

i'd say the recruitment and retention of hunters in your group is because of your obvious passion and enjoyment for the sport, and because you include others

i dont think being able to shoot a deer on somebody else's tag has much to do with it

[nonteepical]

Sorry(i don't know why , just trying to be polite) but I look at taking more than one buck self centered, selfish and only thinking of oneself.

[lakevet]

Thanks for the civil discussion. I have been called alot of names when explaining our groups point of view.

You think take, we think give. Two totally opposite views. Taking without asking (gimme your tag!) is wrong. "Son, you can use my tag if you want" is the opposite of selfish. We had a hunter join our group with your point of view. It blew his mind when we offered willingly to let him use one of our tags. We told him it is about the group, not self. Maybe that is the difference between us nonteepical. You use the word "I" in your post vs." we" in my posts. Different mindsets. Just wish we could keep our tradition. Wisconsin allows party hunting/crosstagging bucks in firearms and muzzy. This includes Buffalo county. Iowa allows party hunt cross tag in shotgun seasons. They are able to get the big bucks and let those who want to maintain their traditions do so at the same time. Minnesota is taking the wrong approach of either /or. They can coexist as Iowa and Wisconsin have proven.

lakevet

[lakevet]

i'd say the recruitment and retention of hunters in your group is because of your obvious passion and enjoyment for the sport, and because you include others

i dont think being able to shoot a deer on somebody else's tag has much to do with it

One of the strongest, most direct ways to make someone know they are important to your group is to freely and willingly give the the gift of the tag. It is the natural result of a passion for both deer hunting AND your fellow hunter.

If your passion is deer hunting and less so your fellow hunter, it may be hard to grasp the concept. Not meaning to be insulting. Just trying to express what our group's point of view is and why we want to keep that tradition.

Thanks, lakevet

[LOTWSvirgin]

if thats how you truly feel about your you groups tradition thats awesome!!! Bet I am willing to bet there are way more selfish hunters who would rather shoot then ask for the tag. Its great that your group freely lets other members of the group use other peoples tags. But to me I would have more satifaction if I or someone else I hunt with shot there own deer and I or someone else put them on the deer or gave them the best spot to shoot the deer. I would get no satifaction shooting someone elses deer if they wanted me to. I hope it spreads like wilffire though the state. Just .02 though. I dont gun hunt anyways

[zzammon]

Agreed 100% lakevet. Out group shares and has shared tags since 1998 when we started. There has never been a second thought about it. We share the tags and the bounty evenly, we are a team. Share and share a like is how I was raised.

[CANOPY SAM]

Out of curiousity, how does this work?

Do you swap buck tags for doe tags prior to taking your stands?

Do you stay back at the cabin while someone else in your party goes to stand with your buck tag?

Do you hunt together, let the other actually shoot the buck, then put your tag on it?

Isn't it already a law in MN that the tag holder must tag their own animal?

I've gifted deer I've bagged, tagged, dressed and dragged to other people. I've also hunted with groups that've EXPECTED me to share animals I've bagged, tagged, dressed and dragged, when they've done little or nothing to fill their own tags. It's awkward.

Not to be controversial, but to me, sharing tags feels like I'm bending the rules, but I rarely hunt in a group. I pretty much hunt alone, or with one of my children, or a friend.

I have to admit though, if I were in stand with any of my kids, or if I still could hunt (with my Dad) I wouldn't hesitate to let them shoot a nice buck and tag it with my tag vs. me taking the animal. I could be sticking my neck out here, but I think it gets quite a bit easier once you've already taken one or more trophy deer yourself. Am I wrong?

Problem is, I think too often people just say, "If you see a nice one walking by, just take it for me." I've said it myself while party hunting.

Sharing tags can open up a big ol' can of worms, and can inadvertantly result in too many animals being taken for too few tags. I've seen, and heard of it happening many times.

The thought is nice though.

[lakevet]

Out of curiousity, how does this work?

Do you swap buck tags for doe tags prior to taking your stands?

No this is illegal. You cannot possess another hunters license/unused tag.

[lakevet]

Do you stay back at the cabin while someone else in your party goes to stand with your buck tag?

No this is illegal and is called poaching, not party hunting. Rulebook states that all hunters must be afield at same time with same type of weapon

[lakevet]

Isn't it already a law in MN that the tag holder must tag their own animal?

Deer must be tagged by the individual, if afield by himself OR by a member of his party which is strictly defined as someone who is AFIELD AT THE SAME TIME and in contact with the hunter who shot the deer. Those sleeping in, or driving up, or back eating lunch are NOT part of the hunter's party.

[lakevet]

Do you hunt together, let the other actually shoot the buck, then put your tag on it?

Exactly right and 100% legal...........til this Fall in zone 3

We like watching someone receiving the gift of the tag. Just like at a birthday party, everyone watches the gifts being opened, but it is about the people at the party, especially the birthday person as well as what they are getting. It is a shared experience expressing how important we are to each other.

It is part of our group dynamic. We share and take turns. We don't keep score (except if someone has a long dry spell we notice and try to up their odds If they want that done) , instead we collect alot of shared memories that we can enjoy year around with each other. Taking away the gift of the tag for us is like having everyone buy their own birthday present. You can get together and have the birthday party, but it changes the dynamic.

[lakevet]

I've gifted deer I've bagged, tagged, dressed and dragged to other people. I've also hunted with groups that've EXPECTED me to share animals I've bagged, tagged, dressed and dragged, when they've done little or nothing to fill their own tags. It's awkward.

I sorry for your bad experience.

Sounds like they aren't hunters, but people who want 100% guide treatment without paying for it. I think it is important to know the group rules before hand. In our group if someone isn't willing to tag another's deer they don't have to do it. We hunt mostly mix of sitting, still hunting and making drives. Everyone helps out with efforts to get deer as well as chores/ costs. It usually takes people 1-2 years to adjust to our group, but once they do, they constantly express how fun it is the whole time, whether they get a deer or not. They keep coming back. I think it was the predominant dynamic in previous generations as people were more connected to and dependent on each other back then. In some ways we have lost that connect (example depending on each other to drag a deer out 3/4 mile- you really appreciated the other hunter, now you don't need him, you have your 4 wheeler).

[lakevet]

Not to be controversial, but to me, sharing tags feels like I'm bending the rules, but I rarely hunt in a group. I pretty much hunt alone, or with one of my children, or a friend.

It only takes two to make a party hunt happen. Often the best experience is a parent child party hunt.

[lakevet]

I have to admit though, if I were in stand with any of my kids, or if I still could hunt (with my Dad) I wouldn't hesitate to let them shoot a nice buck and tag it with my tag vs. me taking the animal.

That is the gift of the tag.

That is my whole point.

That is what has been taken away from zone 3 hunters and probably the rest of us are targeted for similar changes.

You won't be able to let your child shoot two deer and have Dad use his tag on one. Believe me kids notice when Dad does that. Or when another member of the party gives his tag to you. Or your Dad gives his tag to another kid. I sure did, and am deeply indebted to my Dad in learning about generosity and the importance of putting people first before getting a deer.

You won't be able to let your aging parent use your buck tag because they think it is wrong for a son to give their father the gift of their tag. Instead that deer walks so it can be around next season when your parent won't be hunting anymore.

Why can't we maintain the option to do so for those of us who want to maintain our traditions?

[lakevet]

Problem is, I think too often people just say, "If you see a nice one walking by, just take it for me." I've said it myself while party hunting.

Sharing tags can open up a big ol' can of worms, and can inadvertantly result in too many animals being taken for too few tags. I've seen, and heard of it happening many times.

People shooting more deer than tags is something that happens and needs to be prevented and is preventable. This also includes those who are hunting alone who wound deer and are too lazy or unskilled to retrieve the deer and then go and shoot another one. Or shoot a buck and it is smaller than they wanted (ground shrinkage) so they keep hunting the big one and shoot it

Iowa and Wisc, with the same problems you have stated, and still crank out book bucks. These issues have not prevented them from doing so.

Again it is illegal to do shoot more deer than tags whether party or solo hunting.

Where we hunt the deer population is so low the opportunity to have a shooting gallery and "pile up the deer" like in southern Mn is rare. Also group leadership in stating the rules and reviewing tags left and teaching to count shots all are useful tools. We have lots of stories of when we are down to one tag and hunting in a party and you hear a shot. The rule in our group is each shot means a tag used until proven otherwise. To be a legal party you have to be afield hunting together so hearing a shot is not a problem. Sooo you hear a shot, then the big buck walks out. Broadside and close, looking back towards the shot. In our group we will share your agony in having to pass on that deer, but you will be praised to no end for doing the right thing. The person in the party who shot and missed a different deer (usually a doe) and still has a tag will be teased a little. Sometimes the person with the tag IS the one who had to pass on the buck! If the neighbors shot and no one in our party shot then we say the Good Lord wanted that deer to live. These stories have been retold many times and the kids hear it from the time they are little so it is ingrained in them to follow the rules.

[lakevet]

The thought is nice though.

It is a nice thought. It is also much, much more.

It is my family's century long tradition.

Anyone can do the same (as long as you aren't in zone 3).

I encourage all of you to try it. Be the leader in your party . Or start your own group.

Give the gift of the tag.

Sorry for the multiple posts, but it is an treasured tradition for me.

Gotta call Dad now, then take the boys fishing after church.

Happy Father's Day!

lakevet

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Cheers Lakevet! Very well put!

I too have a similar hunting PARTY where we gift tags, if needed, so we can get a few more deer to split up amongst the group. (not everyone in the group gets a shot or even sees a deer all week, and others see multiple and then can help the PARTY get more venison)

It really would be a bummer to shoot a deer on day 1 and have to hang back at camp all week waiting for the others I travel with to hopefully get theirs so we can go home.... It's nice when we can all remain a PARTY and continue hunting all week.

[Rippinlip]

We have always shared tags when we party hunted with shotguns in southern Minn. It was a not mentioned rule, there was no "mine, mine or mine", share the hunt and share the reward.

Now that I have went back to archery hunting with my wife and new hunting family members. "I" buy "our" bonus tag and it is there for whoever fills our first anterless deer.

I will not lie to anyone, I really like harvesting my own deer, but have you ever given someone a tag to use?

Look at the smile of a youngster of a non-seasoned hunter when that happens. Talk about Priceless?

Mark

[Jameson]

One of the reasons I was invited to deer hunt for the first time was due to the party wishing to use my tag first. Many of the party members had an all-season tag and wished to continue hunting past the first weekend. I knew this going in. They stuck me on a bad spot, and tagged the first buck shot with my tag. Really no big deal to me at the time as I was not a deer hunter.

Funny thing happened though...in a couple of years I was into deer hunting. My party shared the venison from the first year, and I loved it. The second year I was able to get a shot at a deer myself. Now, a decade later I bow, and gun hunt. And will muzzy hunt if their still is a need for venison for the party.

Without the party tag system (for bucks) it would have been less likely for me to be invited to hunt, and to this day I may still be just a pheasant hunter .

From my personal history, I view banning party hunting (even if only for bucks) as an action that will lead to less hunters, and hunters spending less time afield. Suppose that's good for the antler obsessed ... .

[nonteepical]

I absolutly understand the gift of the doe tag in the 80's, but in order to recieve the gift of the buck tag, one would have to have already tagged his own buck already. Party hunting isn't getting banned, you can still hunt together. if one guy in the group is seeing deer consistently out of his stand and you aren't, and he/she already shot their buck, switch stands and take your chances. it's hunting not tagging. protecting the younger deer is one form of conservation and hunting ethics of the recource.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Party hunting isn't getting banned, you can still hunt together.

Party huniting is getting banned! Maybe not as of now in the zones in the SE, but if this rule becomes the new law of the land, what about those that hunt in lotto zones and only have 1 tag? You shoot a buck opening morning and suddenly your killing time at camp waiting for the rest of your group to get theirs. Might as well just hunt alone at this point. No sense of having a "Party" to hunt with.

The way this state has been pounding the does, Management zones are decreasing every year. It's only a matter of time and a harsh winter away from becoming a state wide lotto zone again.

I just hope that this cross-tagging law will ALWAYS and ONLY apply to management zones, and will be recinded if a management zone goes back to being a lotto zone.

[smnduck]

I think alot of people party hunt in the SW part of the state. Thats how it is done down there.

[InTheNorthwoods]

*Disclaimer, I am an advocate of doing away with party hunting for bucks, I think it is an outdated system and limits opportunity for other hunters. I think a license and tag is issued in one persons name for a reason. I am a self proclaimed trophy hunter who has no problem shooting a doe, but at the same time, I recognize a trophy is in the eye of the beholder and love to see pictures of happy hunters (forkhorn, buttonbuck, 170" typical - doesn't matter). I think getting together with family and friends at deer camp, telling stories of hunts (or plain [PoorWordUsage]), and being outdoors and seeing deer is more fulfilling than shooting a deer or filling all the tags ever will be.

Now...

For my own indulgence and want of understanding of the position of those of you who are advocates of party hunting, I have a couple questions:

1. Do you feel like when you buy a tag you are buying a deer, or alternatively, that a deer is owed to you because you buy a tag? Or, are you buying a chance at a deer?

2. Is it only worth hunting, or was the hunt only successful and fulfilling, if your (or every) tag is filled?

3. For those worried about taking opportunities away from youngsters, is a hunt only successful if the youngster is pulling the trigger? Or is there value and learning experiences in sharing in a situation where dad shoots a deer after youngster fills his tag?

Just trying to understand the underlying reasoning and mentality and/or the circumstances that lead to your positions.

[big_shooter02]

BruleDrifter- your picture looks all too familiar, you would't happen to be from the Brainerd area?