Michael Vick

[zamboni]

driving drunk or not, it is still an accident. Stabbing is not

[TurnUpTheFishing]

Also I would agree with your stance a little more if the crime he commited were against a human. There's no doubt he's a bad dude but how can guys like us who hunt and fish complain this much about dog fighting. In the eyes of PETA you are just as cruel to animals when you impale a defenseless worm or bait fish on a hook just for your own enjoyment of impaling a bigger fish on the same hook.

Wait, you just compared hunters and fisherman to someone who abused dogs, trained them to fight to the death and brutaly tortured and killed them when they did poorly?

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

Also I would agree with your stance a little more if the crime he commited were against a human. There's no doubt he's a bad dude but how can guys like us who hunt and fish complain this much about dog fighting. In the eyes of PETA you are just as cruel to animals when you impale a defenseless worm or bait fish on a hook just for your own enjoyment of impaling a bigger fish on the same hook.

Wait, you just compared hunters and fisherman to someone who abused dogs, trained them to fight to the death and brutaly tortured and killed them when they did poorly?

I was wondering what took so long for this to come up.

Is it really THAT different? We put a hook through countless baitfish and cause them to die a slow death in an effort to put the same hook through more fish, some released some left to die in a livewell, bucket, stringer, or on top of ice all for our enjoyment and we call it sport.

The only difference is Vick did it to dogs, which have more of a personality than a fish but are still a living creature. I love dogs too but I am not outraged when one is killed. They are still an animal and are "owned" by humans.

I'm not saying it is the right thing to do and I would certainly have no interest in training or fighting dogs but is it really a crime worth 18 months in prison? Vick got more time in prison than any of the other criminals in my earlier post. Those cases were all crimes against other HUMANS.

All I am saying is that as hunters and fisherpeople we should probably not be too quick to judge against those who are charged with animal "rights" violations. The next thing you know deer, pheasants, grouse, turkeys, walleyes, catfish and other game animals we covet will also have "rights". That will be a sad day.

[croixflats]

Now the next time I go fishing I'll be thinking is it better to hook the minnow through the lips or just go through the mouth and out through the back of the head and just be done with it.

Thanks Big Dave that could be valuable fishing time.

[TurnUpTheFishing]

I was wondering what took so long for this to come up.

Is it really THAT different? We put a hook through countless baitfish and cause them to die a slow death in an effort to put the same hook through more fish, some released some left to die in a livewell, bucket, stringer, or on top of ice all for our enjoyment and we call it sport.

The only difference is Vick did it to dogs, which have more of a personality than a fish but are still a living creature. I love dogs too but I am not outraged when one is killed. They are still an animal and are "owned" by humans.

I'm not saying it is the right thing to do and I would certainly have no interest in training or fighting dogs but is it really a crime worth 18 months in prison? Vick got more time in prison than any of the other criminals in my earlier post. Those cases were all crimes against other HUMANS.

All I am saying is that as hunters and fisherpeople we should probably not be too quick to judge against those who are charged with animal "rights" violations. The next thing you know deer, pheasants, grouse, turkeys, walleyes, catfish and other game animals we covet will also have "rights". That will be a sad day.

"Is it really that different?" Yes, it really is that different...

As far as fishing, dogs and fish, worms or whatever you want to add are not on the same emotional or neuorological level as each other. Saying that two dogs fighting or torturing them to death is even remotely close to hooking a minnow or fishing is absurd.

As for hunting their are some sick "sportsman" out their but I think the vast majority of hunters shoot to make a quick, clean kill and utilize what they kill. They are not out there to torture the animals and leave them for dead. If they do and are caught they should be punished too.

You say you're not outraged when dogs are killed? Vick and crew didnt just have a few dog fights. If your neighbor was beating dogs to death, hanging them upside down and drowning them in buckets, attaching wires to 'parts' of their bodies and shocking them to death you wouldnt be outraged?

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

I was wondering what took so long for this to come up.

Is it really THAT different? We put a hook through countless baitfish and cause them to die a slow death in an effort to put the same hook through more fish, some released some left to die in a livewell, bucket, stringer, or on top of ice all for our enjoyment and we call it sport.

The only difference is Vick did it to dogs, which have more of a personality than a fish but are still a living creature. I love dogs too but I am not outraged when one is killed. They are still an animal and are "owned" by humans.

I'm not saying it is the right thing to do and I would certainly have no interest in training or fighting dogs but is it really a crime worth 18 months in prison? Vick got more time in prison than any of the other criminals in my earlier post. Those cases were all crimes against other HUMANS.

All I am saying is that as hunters and fisherpeople we should probably not be too quick to judge against those who are charged with animal "rights" violations. The next thing you know deer, pheasants, grouse, turkeys, walleyes, catfish and other game animals we covet will also have "rights". That will be a sad day.

"Is it really that different?" Yes, it really is that different...

So different that torturing and killing one type of animal requires a prison sentence but torturing and killing a different animal is called a sport and can win you tournaments and prizes?

As far as fishing, dogs and fish, worms or whatever you want to add are not on the same emotional or neuorological level as each other. Saying that two dogs fighting or torturing them to death is even remotely close to hooking a minnow or fishing is absurd.

Are they not both living creatures? Humans and dogs are not on the same emotional or neurological level but it appears that Vick received a stiffer penalty for crimes against dogs than some have received for crimes against humans. You can justify our hobby all you want but it is still the same for the fish.

As for hunting their are some sick "sportsman" out their but I think the vast majority of hunters shoot to make a quick, clean kill and utilize what they kill. They are not out there to torture the animals and leave them for dead. If they do and are caught they should be punished too.

You say you're not outraged when dogs are killed? Vick and crew didnt just have a few dog fights. If your neighbor was beating dogs to death, hanging them upside down and drowning them in buckets, attaching wires to 'parts' of their bodies and shocking them to death you wouldnt be outraged?

Are you outraged when I leave a pile of sunfish lay on the ice to suffocate to death slowly?

[TurnUpTheFishing]

Do you think what Vick did should be as socially acceptable as fishing? In my eyes the act of torturing a dog for the sake of torturing and fishing are not the same but if you want to think so then so be it.

Yes, Vick got a stiffer penality than some other players but that is only the fault of the justice system. Vick did a crime and the justice system nailed him as it should have. Just because the system may have failed the other players doesnt mean Vick should have gotten off easy too, right? He did the time he should have and hopefully he is remorseful.

[Big Dave2]

We can certainly agree to disagree, but All I am trying to say is that we as sportsmen and women need to be careful about what "outrages" us when it comes to animals.

There are plenty of people out there that would love nothing better than to outlaw hunting, fishing, trapping, spearing and other outdoor sports we all love. These people will contend that fish DO feel pain, the same as a bird and are worthy of the same protections provided a dog or other protected animal.

[croixflats]

I'm going to say and think what I want and not be afraid of those who's opinion may differ. Stand up to them Big Dave don't hide from them.

[Shack]

I figure Vick did the crime and served his time. I am not sure if he is totally off paper yet though.

If the NFL can forgive and forget I guess I can I guess I never fell into the gossip and hoop-la of the Vike saga anyways.

Funny thing though ??? Ultimate cage fighting between two humans is all the rage right now

Funny huh?

[Big Dave2]

Here is an example of what we are up against and where this animal "rights" business is heading. This on-line petition had 479 signatures.

Stop Inhumane Betta Fish ConfinementTarget:Meijer Inc..Sponsored by: S Frame.

Dear concerned consumers and respecters of animals

I am asking you to sign this petition to persuade the Meijer Corporation to end its inhumane treatment of betta fish. These fish have somehow come to be conceptualized as decorative household fixtures instead of living creatures. They are wrongly thought to be able to comfortably survive in tiny enclosures with little environmental regulation. On the contrary, these fish have specific environmental needs like all other creatures. Betta breeders encourage owners to provide their fish with a diet designed especially for bettas, a bare minimum of a 2-gallon tank, and specific temperature settings.

The Meijer Corporation is perpetuating the betta fish myths and modeling horrendous treatment of these animals by displaying them in their stores in small plastic or glass containers...even in plastic beverage cups barely half full of water as I recently witnessed in a new Meijer in Urbana, Illinois. Further, Meijer is encouraging this kind of confinement by selling "tanks" such as those made by Penn-Plax which hold .2 gallons of water and are 5-1/2 inches wide by 4-inches across.

I am tired of walking through aisles of groceries and encountering a disgusting display of what should be energetic, vibrant fish floating lifelessly in isolated bowls with only a few cups of water - their fins ragged and their futures indeed very bleak. Animals are not "inventory."

Please help me demand that the Meijer Corporation end this inhumane practice by no longer selling bettas. Tell them that they can be the pioneers that set new standards for large retailers' treatment of animals.

[Big Dave2]

Fish Cruelty

"The brute animals have all the same sensations of pain as human beings, and consequently endure as much pain when their body is hurt; but in their case the cruelty of torment is greater, because they have no mind to bear them up against their sufferings, and no hope to look forward to when enduring the last extreme pain." - Thomas Chalmers, Scottish Religious Leader

These words may shock and upset some people, while very few will actually oppose this atrocious and inhumane treatment, called Fish Cruelty. Fish is not only used as a food, but is also exploited for fishing pleasure and as a decoration item. The ironic part is that fish, like other animals, feel pain and stress, but they are unable to express it the way other vertebrates can. The definition of Fish Cruelty therefore extends to subjecting aquatic beings to any type of unfavorable environment that can be detrimental to their health or psyche in any way. The ensuing discussion identifies some key aspects counted as Fish Cruelty and the steps you can take to prevent it.

Fish Cruelty – The Methodologies.

•Fishing as a Hobby. Right from using a Fish Hook for catching small fish to employing huge nets for the larger ones, all these processes are adverse to nature and cause pain & stress to the fish. Sometimes Gaff Hooks are used to fetch big fish. They are then dragged on to the ship and pulled out, causing them injury and pain.

[Big Dave2]

This one is almost chilling!

STOP FISH CRUELTY

Every year millions of fish are caused pain and suffering at the hands of anglers all over the world. National Anti-Angling Week is the time when the fish receive a voice, as concerned people stand up to protest against this unnecessary and selfish cruelty. It is timed to coincide with the end of the closed season imposed on various angling activities.

Fish have the ability to feel pain just like any other vertebrate animal, including humans. We would not tolerate other animals to be caught and dragged by a hook in their mouth, so why should we permit it in fish.

Anglers are part of the problems afflicting our ecology. They are responsible for large amounts of environmental damage including denudation of riversides and the distrubance of habitats of the endangered otter and water vole. The RSPCA receives over 2,000 cases of animals being harmed or killed by fishing tackle every year. Nor are fishermen willing to help conserve stocks of fish at critical level, such as the salmon.

National Anti-Angling Week aims to highlight all of these through various methods. All over the country local animal rights groups will be taking action against this bloodsport, including:

Anti Angling Stalls and Leafleting

Demonstrations at Angling Shops

Angling Sabotage

Schools Talks and Media Interviews

Much has already been achieved against angling and its popularity is steadily falling. Less and less young people are taking up this bloodsport. A poll last year showed that 29% of the population now oppose it. The end of this bloodsport is now in sight.

[TurnUpTheFishing]

We can certainly agree to disagree, but All I am trying to say is that we as sportsmen and women need to be careful about what "outrages" us when it comes to animals.

There are plenty of people out there that would love nothing better than to outlaw hunting, fishing, trapping, spearing and other outdoor sports we all love. These people will contend that fish DO feel pain, the same as a bird and are worthy of the same protections provided a dog or other protected animal.

I understand where you are coming from with the point of the PETA extremists trying to take away the rights of sportsman but just because of that Im not going to sit back, turn a blind eye and say people can abuse animals as they please just because their is a sliver of a chance Ill lose my fishing rights.

Big Dave2, I see you're trying to play Devils advocate here and it does make one think a little but I believe the majority of people, hopefully you do too, sees the big difference between fishing and torture/dog fighting.

[Big Dave2]

I understand where you are coming from with the point of the PETA extremists trying to take away the rights of sportsman but just because of that Im not going to sit back, turn a blind eye and say people can abuse animals as they please just because their is a sliver of a chance Ill lose my fishing rights.

That's the same thing animal activists say about us.

Big Dave2, I see you're trying to play Devils advocate here and it does make one think a little but I believe the majority of people, hopefully you do too, sees the big difference between fishing and torture/dog fighting.

For lots of animal activists there is no difference. Sure most folks on THIS board will probably justify a difference but out in the real world we are comprising a smaller segment of the population every year.

I'm not trying to be combative here but rather just curious what YOU feel is the difference between torturing fish and torturing dogs?

[croixflats]

Its a choice Big Dave simple as that. Just like in any other choice of what one believes in life. If society deems the sportsman be a minority nothing you or I can do about that but in this society as it sits it will not happen. Why not because we have on both sides that blow things out of proportion that offset each other.

[TurnUpTheFishing]

I'm not trying to be combative here but rather just curious what YOU feel is the difference between torturing fish and torturing dogs?

Dont worry about being combative, Im not taking it that way. Hope you're not taking my comments that way either. Just a little friendly debate

The difference for me would be. Torturing dogs, in this case dog fighting, then torturing the losing dogs. The difference for me is these people are torturing just for the sake of it, I cant find a good way of saying it but they have no other purpose but to torture and kill the dog, no other motive. When I go fishing as I would expect everyone does, no one goes out with the mindset of Im going to catch that fish just to cause it pain then torture it to death. Personally, from evidence Ive seen, I dont feel fish feel pain or have evolved emotions like mammals do. That is where things can get sketchy if someone were to feel fish have the ability to feel or think as other mamals do.

Fishing was once a source of food for us. Obviously we now have other means of getting food but many still fish for food and enjoyment. Its nature, its not always pretty some things need to die so others can live. Dog fighting and torture, its not natural, serves no other purpose but to amuse people by the pain and missery of another creature (again, I dont think fish are on the same emotional or neurological level as mammals).

I would just like to honestly know if you saw someone catch a walleye throw it onto the ice then begin beating a dog to death you wouldnt be outraged by one of those events? The way you are coming off to me is that you feel that one life is no less valuable (I would agree with you) and since you probably dont have a problem with keeping fish would you not have a problem witnessing the dog getting beaten to death?

Im guessing Big Dave and I are getting the award for most serious discussion ever in the football forum, hahah

[Big Dave2]

Dont worry about being combative, Im not taking it that way. Hope you're not taking my comments that way either. Just a little friendly debate

I love a friendly debate, that's what these forums are all about.

The difference for me would be. Torturing dogs, in this case dog fighting, then torturing the losing dogs. The difference for me is these people are torturing just for the sake of it, I cant find a good way of saying it but they have no other purpose but to torture and kill the dog, no other motive. When I go fishing as I would expect everyone does, no one goes out with the mindset of Im going to catch that fish just to cause it pain then torture it to death. Personally, from evidence Ive seen, I dont feel fish feel pain or have evolved emotions like mammals do. That is where things can get sketchy if someone were to feel fish have the ability to feel or think as other mamals do.

If I kill and torture my dog in a fit of rage because he chewed up my shoes, does that make it better? I didn't go into it with the mindset of hurting the dog until I saw the chewed up shoes. A lot of people might argue that you knowingly purchase the bait for the purpose of torturing and killing it on a hook so it is just as premeditated as the dog fighting. Also there are studies out there that our good friends at PETA use that will argue that fish do feel pain and are on the same neurological level as birds and other animals.

Fishing was once a source of food for us. Obviously we now have other means of getting food but many still fish for food and enjoyment. Its nature, its not always pretty some things need to die so others can live. Dog fighting and torture, its not natural, serves no other purpose but to amuse people by the pain and missery of another creature (again, I dont think fish are on the same emotional or neurological level as mammals).

For the most part I agree with all of this statement but again, there are a lot of people who would argue that fishing and hunting "serves no purpose but to amuse people by the pain and missery of another creature".

I would just like to honestly know if you saw someone catch a walleye throw it onto the ice then begin beating a dog to death you wouldnt be outraged by one of those events? The way you are coming off to me is that you feel that one life is no less valuable (I would agree with you) and since you probably dont have a problem with keeping fish would you not have a problem witnessing the dog getting beaten to death?

That's a good point and I would be outraged somewhat by having to witness someone beating thier dog to death, but I would also have to realize that a dog is personal property. I would also be outraged if the same guy took out his perfectly working brand new high definition flat panel 60" TV and shot it with a 12 guage just for fun. If I am more outraged about the dog than the fish it is because I have been conditioned to feel this way. That doesn't make it right. I grew up on a farm and a big part of farm life was killing things. Every year we killed pigs, steirs, and hundreds of chickens. It was just part of daily life and we never felt bad about it at all, just as hunters and fishers should not feel bad about it either. We would have never killed a dog for no reason but if there was a good reason, like the dog was mean and bit someone, that dog would be gone in a heartbeat! My dad would have had no problem beating a dog like that to death if he had to since he didn't own any guns. Back in those days people would thin out the farm cat heard or get rid of unwanted puppies by putting them in a gunny sack and throwing them in the river too. I'm not saying it is the right way to go about things but times are changing and people think they are becoming more enlightened!

I am certainly not agreeing with the torture of any animal, just suggesting that as hunters and fishers we take a subjective view on this subject so we don't become hypocrites. To me an animal is an animal and a human is a human, 2 different things.

Im guessing Big Dave and I are getting the award for most serious discussion ever in the football forum, hahah

Yeah, this is getting way too serious. Maybe we should start another Brett Favre post instead