Tarvaris Jackson

[RumRiverRat]

he's the geek in the corner with his hat cocked reading the book "how to read defenses for dummies"!

i might be giving him to much credit he might just be looking at the pictures!

LOL!

[Swimbait2009]

"I love how you guys think you can see the future and predict the future!!! Seriously, get real!!! "

How are your predictions any more accurate than anyone else's? Be careful pointing fingers...

I feel TJ has struggled in more games than he has "succeeded", and he has been given many chances to succeed. If he is to be our QB of the future, he needs to be put into games without much pressure to get reps at game speed. Without that, most QBs are going to struggle to find rhythm. Unfortunately he has shown that he doesn't put us in that sort of position consistently (consistently is the key here) if he starts the game. This year is our best chance in a long time to find ourselves with a good lead, and with Favre at the helm it makes sense to rest him in that situation. If we don't take advantage of our talent, TJ won't get a chance to play more than a few snaps each game. That's not a favorable situation to "develop" (can't believe we're still using that term how man years later?). I feel TJ will continue to struggle if he doesn't get good experience this year in his backup role. If that's the case, do the guy a favor and send him somewhere that he can start with a clean slate.

[gr8icefishinmind]

Tjunk will not win a game if he has to replace Favre!!\]

That is one quote from a hater!!

The difference is i haven't used words that imply the guy will never succeed which ALL of the haters seem to use!! My predictions are just that, predictions! Predicting a guy could be good is wayyyyyy different than saying a guy will NEVER be able to do something cause really you have no clue what the guy may be able to accomplish!!

I'm at least giving the guy a chance instead of saying he cannot or will never amount to anything!! That is the difference!!

[Swimbait2009]

Tjunk will not win a game if he has to replace Favre!!\]

That is one quote from a hater!!

The difference is i haven't used words that imply the guy will never succeed which ALL of the haters seem to use!! My predictions are just that, predictions! Predicting a guy could be good is wayyyyyy different than saying a guy will NEVER be able to do something cause really you have no clue what the guy may be able to accomplish!!

I'm at least giving the guy a chance instead of saying he cannot or will never amount to anything!! That is the difference!!

You're right, we don't know what he could or could not accomplish in the future, but we DO know what he HASN'T been able to accomplish, and that is consistent success. Will he be able to somewhere down the road? Maybe. But do we want to waste the rest of the talent on the team while we wait for that to happen? I don't. Look at the situation in Washington. Clinton Portis is one of the best backs we have seen in the NFL in the past few years, and his talent is wasted while management tries to find its identity/coach/QB/dignity. All players in the NFL have a finite "shelf-life", and the key to winning it all is having everyone succeed at the same time. TJ is on a different schedule and that's my issue with the situation. If he's still developing, he should be on a team that is developing on the same curve.

[Swimbait2009]

Tjunk will not win a game if he has to replace Favre!!\]

That is one quote from a hater!!

The difference is i haven't used words that imply the guy will never succeed which ALL of the haters seem to use!! My predictions are just that, predictions! Predicting a guy could be good is wayyyyyy different than saying a guy will NEVER be able to do something cause really you have no clue what the guy may be able to accomplish!!

I'm at least giving the guy a chance instead of saying he cannot or will never amount to anything!! That is the difference!!

You're right, we don't know what he could or could not accomplish in the future, but we DO know what he HASN'T been able to accomplish, and that is consistent success. Will he be able to somewhere down the road? Maybe. But do we want to waste the rest of the talent on the team while we wait for that to happen? I don't. Look at the situation in Washington. Clinton Portis is one of the best backs we have seen in the NFL in the past few years, and his talent is wasted while management tries to find its identity/coach/QB/dignity. All players in the NFL have a finite "shelf-life", and the key to winning it all is having everyone succeed at the same time. TJ is on a different schedule and that's my issue with the situation. If he's still developing, he should be on a team that is developing on the same curve.

[gr8icefishinmind]

I totally agree......i do think it is good he is number two and is able to watch and hopefully learn from favre! What i am saying is that the haters think he will amount to nothing no matter where he plays...the word "never" means just that and it has been said numerous times by others about jackson!!

[gr8icefishinmind]

Haters other than you that is!

[Swimbait2009]

I feel it will be VERY difficult for him to do it here in MN. There are too many coaches and fans that have watched him struggle here that will be cheering against him. Look at Cedric Benson this year...change of scenery and he's one of the league leading RBs. It would be doing TJ a favor to allow him to start with a clean slate somewhere else. There are a few teams that would be interested I think: Buffalo, Washington, Carolina come to mind. None of those teams even have anyone in the wings! Cleveland *MAY* be looking as well since neither Anderson nor Quinn have done anything. Those teams are sure to end up with some pretty high draft picks next year and the year after. Imagine what we could do with those picks next year, especially if Favre plays another year?

[Swimbait2009]

I feel it will be VERY difficult for him to do it here in MN. There are too many coaches and fans that have watched him struggle here that will be cheering against him. Look at Cedric Benson this year...change of scenery and he's one of the league leading RBs. It would be doing TJ a favor to allow him to start with a clean slate somewhere else. There are a few teams that would be interested I think: Buffalo, Washington, Carolina come to mind. None of those teams even have anyone in the wings! Cleveland *MAY* be looking as well since neither Anderson nor Quinn have done anything. Those teams are sure to end up with some pretty high draft picks next year and the year after. Imagine what we could do with those picks next year, especially if Favre plays another year?

[AWH]

Swimbait, for someone that is taking the side you are taking on the T-Jack topic, you're one of the few that is able to think logically and rationally and use some common sense. Nice to see there are still some people out there like that! I agree that a change of scenery is probably the best thing for T-Jack's career at this point for exactly the reasons you touched on. He definitely has the ability to be a solid QB in this league if he gets in the right situation. Hopefully the Vikings have learned their lesson this year and will make sure that they put someone behind center that's ready to lead a team that can make a run deep into the playoffs when Favre is done.

Aaron

[FISHINGURU]

LOL AWH...the junkson haters said long ago that he needs a change of scenery why do you think we wanted him to leave? atleast you caught on now!!

if i were you i wouldn't say he definitely has the ability to be a solid qb....he's missing some of the most important pieces to the puzzle.

i agree i hope the vikes did learn their lesson!!

[james_walleye]

Swimbait, for someone that is taking the side you are taking on the T-Jack topic, you're one of the few that is able to think logically and rationally and use some common sense. Nice to see there are still some people out there like that! I agree that a change of scenery is probably the best thing for T-Jack's career at this point for exactly the reasons you touched on. He definitely has the ability to be a solid QB in this league if he gets in the right situation. Hopefully the Vikings have learned their lesson this year and will make sure that they put someone behind center that's ready to lead a team that can make a run deep into the playoffs when Favre is done.

Aaron

Yeah we are all out of touch, yet you can't dispute anything we say as false now can you. Go ahead, prove any of us wrong.

[AWH]

Yes, the haters have said that all along. It's the REASON that the haters want him to leave that differ greatly here. The haters think he would leave and be out of the league shortly and because they hate the guy, they would then be happy. You want him to leave because you think he's a terrible QB with no future.

I'd be happy with him staying in a Vikings uniform if they don't go out and get a better option. You guys are for getting rid of him without having a better option in place. I'm for doing what's best for the team because I'm a Vikings fan. Much like I was for bringing Favre in because I'm a Viking fan. I was able to separate the Packer player from the football player. The haters aren't able to separate the name Tarvaris Jackson from the football player. They feel better about themselves by being able to call him T-Junk or Junkson because they are very classy and respectful "fans".

T-Jack is currently the best backup QB option they have and he'd be the best starting option they have if Favre wasn't on the roster. Some of you think that Sage is better, and that's fine. But there's a reason that they name a number 2 QB, and that's because they want to win the games and want the best chance to win if the starter goes down. No matter how you guys might want to spin the reason he's number 2, it all comes down to winning games in the NFL. For those of us that are able to see T-Jack for what he is, it's no surprise to any of us that he was named the number 2 guy.

I don't believe he's the long term answer here. But he could be if they develop him in the right way. Unfortunately, it's probably too late for that. But separating T-Jack from the Vikings, the best thing for his career is probably a change of scenery. This is not something I have "caught on to" as you would like to convince yourself of, but something I have thought all along.

And yes, he has all the ability to be a solid QB in this league. Too bad you aren't able to see that. The only thing he's missing is experience, an objective fan base and a fresh start.

Aaron

[AWH]

Not necessarily out of touch, James. More a big lack of objectivity. This isn't a shot at you. It's typical of fans because they get attached to the team they root for and aren't able to step back and look at things objectively. If they think they've been burned by a player or a coach, it's hard to step back and look at things with an open mind. That's why on all these posts you see so many people that have made up their mind about the future as if they know for an absolute fact what has happened before the fact. This is 90% of what the T-Jack supporters here have a problem with...much more so than the evaluation of his PAST performances.

Aaron

[james_walleye]

For those of us that are able to see T-Jack for what he is, it's no surprise to any of us that he was named the number 2 guy.

And yes, he has all the ability to be a solid QB in this league. Too bad you aren't able to see that. The only thing he's missing is experience, an objective fan base and a fresh start.

Aaron

Why don't you enlighten all of us on what he really is? I'm a guy that was a supporter a year ago, im going on what hes done on the field. What he really is....is a guy who has physical talent but can't grasp the NFL game.

Hes missing expierience? Hes had more time and expierience as a starter in MN to develop than he would have had anywhere else in this league.

[james_walleye]

Not necessarily out of touch, James. More a big lack of objectivity. This isn't a shot at you. It's typical of fans because they get attached to the team they root for and aren't able to step back and look at things objectively. If they think they've been burned by a player or a coach, it's hard to step back and look at things with an open mind. That's why on all these posts you see so many people that have made up their mind about the future as if they know for an absolute fact what has happened before the fact. This is 90% of what the T-Jack supporters here have a problem with...much more so than the evaluation of his PAST performances.

Aaron

If you had read this stuff all along you would have known a year ago i was arguing for Jackson to have a shot. So you can save the objectivity talk. Its apparent at this time the guy is no where near the level of QB this team needs and i don't want to waste away any more years to see when, or most importantly if the guy ever gets it. Lets face it, the odds are he will not get it.

[AWH]

Everything you're asking here, James, are things we have gone back and forth on many times. So just go back and read. That's fine if you were a supporter of the guy at one time. I guess that kind of proves the point I was just making. You feel you've been burned by the guy, which makes it harder to step back. This is human nature. Just stick to your point of wanting him gone becuase you don't want to spend anymore time to see if he can develop and it would carry a lot more weight. When you turn it into predicting future unknowns as facts, this is where it loses objectivity. At least in your last post you are stating that there's a possibility that he could develop and that you just don't think it will happen. There's a big difference between that and many of your previous posts. Opinions versus claimed facts.

Turning this into a fishing analogy (since this is in fact, a fishing HSOforum)...I am a big musky fisherman, which is probably obvious by my signature line. Being a fisherman, you probably know there's plenty of controversy when it comes to muskies and what they do or do not do to our fisheries. Without getting into that too deep, most people that are against muskies use opinions or things they have heard and state them as fact to try to reach a personal agenda. Twisting facts and making them something they aren't is another common thing you see in the musky world. With this, people that do not know any better will hear this misinformation and form their own uneducated opinions.

Having dealt with this for years in the musky world, I see it all the time. And in a nutshell, this is why I've taken a harder stance on the T-Jack topic. I really don't care what anyone's opinion is on the guy. I take issue with people stating opinions as hard facts because it turns into a nightmare when it comes to things that matter. Luckily, this is just sports and nothing that will effect 99% of us at the end of the day.

Aaron

[james_walleye]

Who is stating hard facts?? When i say the guy will never be an NFL QB...or that any season with him is a starter will be a lost season....thats my opinion. Do i need to put "i think" the guy will never be an NFL QB for you to get that?

[Swimbait2009]

Aaron, I disagree with you that TJ is our best 2nd option. This is my opinion and I know that TJ is listed as our number 2, but I think that the off-season competition was much closer than reported, and TJ's long-term relationship with the franchise was taken into account in the end. I don't know this...this is pure speculation, but TJ deserves an edge due to "time served" along with any performance.

Now, preseason competition aside (as it is a small window into their respective careers), let's look at their respective careers.

If we compare the two QBs side to side, we have two very different players/athletes. TJ's raw skill set holds the clear advantage over Sage. There really isn't much good data on Sage in full-game situations. He's never been the starter at the beginning of the season, which limits the possibility of developing true chemistry with his receivers. TJ has started the season and been the starter through training camp, which should favor him in a starting role. If you compare the QB ratings (I'm not a big fan of the rating system, but it is the same for all QBs, so it is our standard), Sage has the clear advantage. In '06-'07 his QB rating was 103. The only time TJ has broken 100 for a season has been this year, but he's only attempted 5 passes. He's completed 4 of them, but that's not a fair data set. Sage's season in '06, he attempted 39 passes in 4 games, where he completed over 69% of them. TJ has NEVER completed of 60% of his passes until his mop-up duty (be honest, it's been mop-up so far) this year. Sage's completion percentage for his entire career (7 seasons, playing in 32 games) is 62.5! TJ has played way more per season than Sage as well with 28 games in 4 seasons, versus Sage's 32 in 7. So, it's fair to say that TJ has been given more opportunities and done less with them. Sage also has 10 more TDs in only 4 more games. TJ makes up for that a little bit with 4 rushing TDs to Sage's 1, but the NFL doesn't look for TDs out of their QBs as much as it did 3 or 4 years ago.

What do all those stats mean to me? Well, while TJ is a MUCH better athlete than Sage, the latter QB has produced more where it counts: TDs, completion percentage, and QB rating. Also looking at the elite QBs in the league, how many of them would you really call GREAT overall athletes? Looking at the top 5...none of them really. Yeah they're great athletes in the QB position, but we're not asking these guys to run the ball or run a gimicky offense. Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Favre, Schaub, Brees...these guys couldn't outrun most of the referees on the field . At the QB position I don't think you need impressive running ability anymore (only a few scramblers have really been all that successful long-term: Cunningham, McNabb (early career style), Vick (not that he had a long-term career before his trouble, but he *could* do something still). Marino, Montana, Unitas, Elway (he had some dramatic runs due to his heart)...none of those guys were going to set any speed records and I think you would agree that they are the best of the best ever.

So my overall opinion is this: I think TJ can be a very good backup QB due to the unique skill set that he brings as it will catch defenses off guard in spot duty. Sage is a VERY accurate passer as his stats show. To be honest I'm not very familiar with his arm strength, but it can't be awful (I hope ). Yeah he's been a little turnover happy, but TJ hasn't been any better...Sage (career): 30TD/29INT, 11Fum/5Lost; TJ (career): 20TD/18INT, 13Fum/7Lost. So, using the turnover debate against Sage and in favor of TJ is really not a strong position, since as you can see it's pretty much a wash. The small difference is more due to the difference in number of games played. If you play in more games behind center, you're going to turn the ball over more. That's just the way it goes.

I guess I value passing efficiency over rushing potential in a QB, especially with AP and Percy on the field to give all the razzle dazzle any team would want.

[AWH]

Those are perfect examples. Everyone here knows that those are your opinions. There's never been any question about that and there's nothing to "get" there. It's called representing your statements for what they are. And those are clearly opinions that are stated as if they were facts. This is the point that many of us have been making. This also goes along perfectly with my analogy above.

If you don't understand this, look to politics as another great analogy. Why do you think most people don't trust politicians and political debates get so heated? Usually it's nothing more than two sides stating their opinions as if they were facts in order to meet their own political agenda. If actual facts were laid out there in an objective way so people could formulate their own educated opinions we'd all be better off.

Aaron

[james_walleye]

The only thing he's missing is experience, an objective fan base and a fresh start.

Aaron

And how is what im saying any different than this statement??? This is an opinion that you are stating as fact. An opinion you are stating as fact that many people, if not most people will disagree with. Just remember how many opinions that you are stating as fact that you throw out as well. And you know what...who cares??! Its an opinion, i know its opinion and not fact...

[AWH]

Swimbait, nice objective evaluation! I would agree that if you look at their careers as a whole, they're probably isn't a lot of difference and even an edge to Sage. But you really have to look at where they're at in their careers and where they're at today. I'm sure the Vikings coaching staff took everything into consideration when deciding on their depth chart. I think you know what you're getting with Sage. He's not going to be great, he's not going to be horrible (although you will likely see glimpses of both). One of the reasons that he is and has been a good career backup NFL QB.

The same could be said for T-Jack on the great/horrible comments. But we've seen improvement out of Jackson. He takes better care of the ball than he did in his first two years and he makes better in game decisions (which is part of why he doesn't turn the ball over as much). Based on what we've seen, there's no good reason to believe he won't continue to show improvement. And this being the case, more potential upside/growth out of T-Jack.

You can make a case for either Sage or T-Jack in the backup roll. But I have to believe that the coaching staff wouldn't put a guy second on the depth chart if they thought they had a better chance to win with the other guy there. As Herm Eedwards' famous quote goes - You play to win the game!

Aaron

[Swimbait2009]

I agree that TJ is going to have higher "highs" than Sage, but I also think his "lows" are going to be lower. If I were building a team, that right there would lead me to rank Sage over TJ. Your starter is responsible for the highs, and if you are in the unfortunate position to need your backup the last thing you want is to increase your chance of more lows.

[AWH]

James, three years in the league for someone in Jackson's position out of college is not considered to be a lot of experience. Especially someone at the QB position. If we were to turn back the clock and ask people on draft day if they thought 3 years would be enough time to know what T-Jack can be in this league, most would likely say no. More playing time, more time in the league is MORE experience. This is a fact. Fans of any team in any sport are not objective. They're always going to have a bias. This is a fact. T-Jack is a Viking, the same place he has been his entire career. This is not a fresh start. This is a fact.

But I agree, who cares? As I stated previously, I really don't care what anyone's opinion is of the guy.

Aaron

[james_walleye]

James, three years in the league for someone in Jackson's position out of college is not considered to be a lot of experience. Especially someone at the QB position. If we were to turn back the clock and ask people on draft day if they thought 3 years would be enough time to know what T-Jack can be in this league, most would likely say no. More playing time, more time in the league is MORE experience. This is a fact. Fans of any team in any sport are not objective. They're always going to have a bias. This is a fact. T-Jack is a Viking, the same place he has been his entire career. This is not a fresh start. This is a fact.

But I agree, who cares? As I stated previously, I really don't care what anyone's opinion is of the guy.

Aaron

Its your opinion that those 3 things are all he needs. Its not fact that more experience is going to get the guy to a point where he is a decent NFL QB. Its not fact that a change of scenery will do anything for the guy. Its not fact that an objective fan base will do anything for the guy. Its your opinion that those things will help. You stated opinions, just as i stated opinions, there is no difference....