lab types?

[Ralph Wiggum]

I think in the last paragraph I was trying to get at the point that some seem to get at with the common response of "well I paid $200 and he is a great dog, I think it is stupid for some to pay $1500 for a dog."

I used to be on that boat. Then I got serious about buying a dog, did a lot of research, and decided that it was worth it to drop a healthy chunk of change on a pup, to me at least. I think, in the long run, a well-bred dog is a better investment than the dog from a "backyard breeder".

[caseymcq]

... It all comes down to blood lines and how much time you put into the dog....

... You only get what you put into a dog.

IMO that is the biggest factor in how a dog turns out. A dog with with best bloodlines in the world won't be any better than its training. Bloodlines may give a dog potentail but training makes a dog what it is.

I can agree with spending a decent bit of money on a dog. It doesn't have to be a virtual mint though. $1000 is a wee bit overly expensive IMO.

We had a litter of pups and didn't charge an arm and a leg. Our pups had pedigrees that were pretty impressive. I am not sure if we would have considered "back-yard" breeders because we aren't a large scale operator. We are RESPONSIBLE breeders. Our dog had hips, elbows (certified good) and eyes (CERF certified) checked before we considered breeding our female. The stud dog had to pass the same scrutiny. If we breed again the dogs will have CNM, EIC, etc. checked out too.

[LABS4ME]

C'mon Labs we'd all like to hear your take on this!!!

People selling lab pups on color is just a marketing thing, trying to differentiate their pups from the hordes of blacks, yellows, and chocolates. And it works. Suzy Homemaker maybe just wants a 'white' lab.

More or less my perception and opinion has been covered in here. I do not believe in lab 'types'. A lab is a lab is a lab is a lab.

If you are looking for a particular protocol, (size, temperment, athletic ability etc) by all means research the breedings and pedigrees of several breeders efore you move forward with a purchase. If you want a 'true' english breeding, make sure the pedigree is 'true' English breeding. It kills me to see people paying high prices for 50-50 breedings of American dogs to British dogs but were advertised as British Labs. Also, I've posed this question in the past and no one can give me an answer... at what point do these 'British' breedings become 'American' Labs. I can assure you that 'Johnnie pheasant hunter' who breeds 'Bingo the wonder lab' whom is a second generation offspring from any true direct import from Britain to another dog of even the same lineage, would this still be a true 'British' breeding? 3 generations? 4? If so, aren't all Labs British? The breed was brought to America, not developed here.

Now with that said, are there 'true' generalizations in regards to temperment, size, ability? Sure, but they are not hard and fast. If you are Duckbuster looking for a winning trial competitor, you will be hard pressed to find an English dog who will give you a realistic chance. Through years of selective breeding, the American trial enthusists have developed an athlete with structure, brains and stamina on par with a pro athlete. It is no different than the race horse industry... look for the best and winningest and breed down a line of dogs that will consistantly give you an edge. British dogs do not do well with the American style of training or trialing. Seen it first hand often with direct imports.

Are all Americna labs big? Nope! I can with a reasonable degree of consistancy, breed smaller labs. This last litter has one of the females topping out around 48-50 pounds. She is proportionate and muscular. Are all Ameican labs scatter brain spaz's? Nope! Again, I can with a reasonable degree of consistancy provide my clients with a lab that will be easy to train and have a great demeanor as a pet which is what they are 90% of the time. But in the end, it still comes down to training and the amount of energy you put in your dog as to the final outcome in not only it's abilities, but it's demeanor.

I look for in a lab... a calm demeanor, a dog that can prove it has natural ability, a degree of intelligence (look at the pedigree for titled dogs), proper build of the parents, proper coat of the parents, at least a reasonable lab tail as spelled out in the AKC stds., no duddleyism, and from there asking the breeder pointed questions as to what the parents are like. I do incorporate some show dogs into my lines as they are the ones who will pass on the physical traits of a 'lab'. We as hunters, trialers and pet owners have bred out waaaaaay too much of what makes a lab a lab. It should matter not where the dog originated from, but rather what dogs are selected to carry on the breed. I've had dogs from all 'American' breedings that are/were outstanding and a few from Scoish desent that were also great dogs. I've seen the flip of both also. Everything we talk about is broad swipes of a brush. They are not produced on an assembly line! They are created by God, Mother Nature or Cosmic Dust... what ever you believe in, thus they are NEVER going to be rubber stamped to be the same as they come into the world. All we can do when breeding or buying is be true to what we believe will be the best lab we can get to date and work with that. Using descriptions to buy and sell labs is way over rated. A fox red is a yellow. An Ivory or Snow White is a yellow. A silver or ghost lab is a Chocolate and so on. Is your British lab really a British? Is your pointing lab really going to point? so on and so on.

There is a lot of hype in the lab breeding world and I do agree they have been over bred without regard to advancing the breed or at least maintaining the original design of the breed. Too often only one attribute is used to decide whether to breed or not. ie: the dog achieved a field title, but lacks all physical attributes and demeanor of a lab... it will still be bred, conversely, a show dog with proper build and coat will be bred even if it has no desire to pick up a dead bird and no has little enthusiasm. Then we have all 'the best pheasnt hunter I've ever seen' breedings taking place without regard to inherited disorders and is this dog really helping to advance the breed and maitain it? Everyone knows a guy who did the: his "Bingo" bred to another guy at works "Banjo" and promoted them and crowned them the best hunters bred together, but will will they produce great dogs? What criteria is used to determine that other than they can with regularity flush a pheasant?

I'm getting off track... so I'll straighten out my thoughts. a lab is a lab. Some are calmer than others, some have better physical traits, some are smarter and have better natural abilities, some mature slow, some are big and some are small. Research your breeder, their lines and ask yourself what it is you are looking for. Then go out and find it. They are out there. The exact dog you want. But all too often buying a puppy is looked upon as the same as going to the grocery store. Look at a label and throw it in the cart and then buy it. Most people cannot even give you any criteria as to what they used in their puppy buying decision, other than price.

Good Luck!

Ken

[theghost_03]

Labs,

I have to say you put it perfectly! It is great to hear your input on this and a great read as well. This should put an end to this conversation as I don't see anything that can argue with your points.

[duckbuster]

I will add a bit to what Casy has to say.

If you are looking for strictly a Gun dog, hunting companion it is my opinion, based on exactly what Casey mentions, one should not spend more than 4-5 hundred dollars on the pup. What a dog needsto know or trained to do as a Gun dog/Hunting dog is not all that scientific. Teachthe dog to quarter, teach the dog to cast/handle, teach the dog to pick up a bird and bring it back. I am of the opinion that these are things you can get out of a dog with a price tag like I mention. Again, I agree with Casey, spending $1,000 on your hunting companion is to much.

Where I am also going with this is that puppies are SOOOO over priced today when comparing them to a normal inflation rate. I will give you two examples of this, one from the field trial side, the other from the gun dog/Hunting companion side. First the trial side. In 1979 my father bought a puppy from parents that were both field trial titled, FC-AFC, Field Champion/Amateur Field Champion for $300.00. Today in the field trial arena in which I play you could not touch this breeding for less than $3,000. People are asking $1,200-$1,500 for a FC-AFC bred to a Senior hunter or Master hunter. Verg, if you are still onthis thread this is what I was talking about earlier when I said I would never again pay original asking price.

Now to the Gun dog/Hunting companion side. 15 years ago I paid $250.00 for a black lab out of the paper. Neither parent were anything but hunters. Once you got past the parents the rest of the pedigree look pretty darn impressive. Today you would be hard pressed to pay less than $500.00.

In the end I agree with what Labs has to say 100%. A Lab, is a Lab, is a Lab!!!! And what casy has to say, you get out of your friend what you put into them. Give them the time they deserve and NEED and you will be OK. Leave them in the kennel for 9-10 months of the year then PLEASE don't expect the world from him/her.

... You only get what you put into a dog.

[PikeBayCommanche]

I would agree this has been a great thread.

I also believe the inflation of prices is somewhat gone high. You can find quality dogs for less.

We just had a litter a few weeks ago and both dogs are from fabulous bloodlines but I have never had the time or money to get them titled to try and make more money off them. I know they have the potential to be MH. We are only asking $500 for them and probably will always sell my pups for around that price. We look beyond money and more to the breeding dogs that will make people happy and enjoy them in the field and the home.

We have acquired dogs with OFA Clear hips and eyes. It only seems logical for me to try to make the healthiest, best looking, and most trainable instinctively gifted dogs.

[island guy]

Very informative thread. I've trained a few. Started out with golden retrievers and my present dog is a chocolate lab. She's approaching 10 and slowing down so I'll get another to train during her golden years. Financially, I'll never be able to afford big bucks on a pup. What I can give is time. A good dog is a direct result of time spent. It's a daily thing.

[BLACKJACK]

Lots of good posts here!! People are passionate about their Labs!!!

I'll be looking for a pup here in a year or two, my old lab is 14 and my young one is 6. What I will look for first is a breeder that has

1) taken the time to have the hips and eyes certified. This is important to me because of the time you spend with them and I don't want to have to put a dog down at the age of three because of bad hips/eyes

2) some field champs in the background but it can be a couple of generations out, I think some of the field trial dogs have been bred to be too 'hot'.

3) conformation, I like a stocky lab, not some of the whippets that have been bred for field trials - see #2.

I like it when a breeder has both parents that I can see. Also if they have more than one breeding female I start thinking 'puppy mill'. Price, I expect to pay anywhere from $300-700. You're talking about a 15 year commmitment, I want a good one, not a backyard breeding.

[duckbuster]

Blackjack, do you honestly believe that you can not get "a good one" from as you put it a backyard breeding? We're talking about gun dogs here not spot on, precision type dogs that have to do things like a trial dog.

As I stated in my first reply, the first dog I bought on my own came pretty much just as you have described in your second paragraph but with little else. Never had a collar on her in 13 years and I would have put her up against ANY duck dog in this state.

I would go to a backyard breeder as a lot of people on this sight discourage before I went to a puppy mill.

[theghost_03]

I don't believe that was what Blackjack was stating. He is entitled to having some expectations before he purchases a pup, whether it be based on past experiences or advice. I hate to repeat everything already said, but there is nothing wrong with doing some homework and finding a breeder who has the ideals to help continue to improve the breed by ensuring soundness of dogs. Can you get a good dog from other breeders, sure, it's all about time invested. There are standards for every type of dog. Sometimes that is based on each persons opinion, or in other cases a judges. I can tell you this much however, from experience in the conformation shows, you will not find a backyard dog coming in and taking a show. And I hate to jump off base, but conformation is a big aspect in ensuring a breed continues to improve. The standards are in place and have been forever. It is all about what YOU want out of your dog and what type of work you put into your dog.