Expert lab advice needed!

[jlm]

I have a question for the lab lovers reading this. I have been looking for a new hunting partner and thought I would take a look at a few dogs that are a little older and trained as I will have limited time to get a dog ready for the upcoming season. I took a look at a 3.5 year old yellow lab this weekend. Here are the details. He is beyond started and is a beautiful dog. He will heal, fetch, and release upon command. He is good in the water (although he was a bit apprehensive about going in at first). He knows limited hand signals and is just getting started on blind work. He will need a lot of work to get blind retrieves and hand signals down but he appears willing. I really liked the dog but here is my question for you guys. They are asking $2500 for the dog. I expect to pay through the nose for a good dog but this really surprised me. Is a 3.5 year old yellow lab that has the ground work down (mostly just the basic stuff) worth that amount of money? If so why? If not why? Any help would be great from some of you guys that do this for a living or have a lot of experience with labs! Thanks in advance!

[Fisher Dave]

I would have a hard time putting out $2500 for a dog that I havent seen in actual hunting conditions.

At 3.5 years the dog will have about another 3-5 hunting seasons left providing it doesnt run into hip or health problems.

A started pup might be a better buy .. something in the 6-8 month old range... or 1-1.5 range if your lucky enough to find one.

[fwp]

JIM, THE AMOUNT IS NOT OUT OF THE ORDINARY FOR A GOOD STARTED DOG. I WOULD BE SOMEWHAT CONCERNED ABOUT THE FACT THE DOG IS NOT FINISHED WITH THE HANDLING. WITH TODAYS TRAINING TECHNIQUES MOST DOGS ARE COMPLETED WITH MOST OF THEIR SERIOUS TRAINING HANDLING WELL BEFORE THEY ARE 3. ALSO YOU MENTIONED HE WAS A BIT APREHENSIVE THE FIRST TIME IN THE WATER. I DON'T KNOW THE CONDITIONS BUT I HAVE NEVER OWNED A GOOD LAB THAT WAS APREHENSIVE ABOUT GOING IN THE WATER. FISHER DAVE WAS RIGHT ABOUT WANTING TO SEE HOW THE DOG DELT WITH DEAD DUCKS OR OTHER BIRDS. I HAVE NOT HAD TO RETIRE MY PARTNERS IN THE PAST UNTIL THEY WERE 10 - 12. GOOD LUCK!

[Koda]

Usually started dog pricing is figured out like such.
Cost of pup + (cost of monthly training x # of months)

So in this case maybe the pup was $700 and it had 6 months of training (@ $300/Mo.) 1800 for the training + 700 for the pup = $2500.

It's up to you to figure out if you think the training was good and whether the dog passes the nessacary health clearances to continue hunting for many more years.

[Fishing Realtor]

I worked at a kennal a few years ago and our started dogs went for $3 K. I never figured out why guys would pay outrageous amounts of $ for someone else to train their dog. I realize time is of concern - but if you let someone else do it, you are not establishing any kind of relationship with the dog in the most crucial points in their lives. I believe a big part in a dog's success is the willingness to please it's master...if you were not there the first 3.5 years - will the dog really want to go balls out for you?

[LABS4ME]

Being around, training, trialing and hunting labs for all of my adult life, let me weigh in on a few things.

1. The price (without seeing the dog) is within the realm of a good solid working retriever. A "started" dog (those in the $1000.00 - $1500.00) range vary quite a bit in the amount of "started" in the dog. Could be as little as basic obedience, introduced to gun fire, and a few birds shot over it, to, the above plus steady on marks, collar conditioned, and quartering in the field. A good "finished" retriever in the 3 to 5 year old range, (multilple marks, non-slip, cold blinds, possibly even titled) goes for $3000.00 - 5000.00. Your dog seems to fall in between each category as far as training and price. I bought a Qualified all-age dog at the age of 5 for $3000.00. Sounds like a lot, but figure in the cost of buying a quality pup, food, vet bills and any training costs assoc. with a pro or even doing it yourself. $3000.00 wouldn't be that far out of range then. I had just put down 2 finished dogs, both were trained by me (one a master hunter) in a 6 month period. I was down to one dog who will never make a great duck dog. I figure 6 years of hunting left in this dog equates into $500.00 a season and a few stud fees help reduce that even further.

2. I've bought and sold several started dogs over the last 15 years. Some were "projects"
that we couldn't advance along in the trial game, some were left over pups from litters I had and I would keep the pups till 4-6 months of age and get them started along. I've never personally had or seen a problem with a dog not excepting it's new master. If that was the case how can a 6-8 month old dog leave it's master and go to a pro and do work for him? The transition is usually pretty seamless. If anything it's vice-versa and the dog gives the pros problems and works well for it's owners. I have friends and aquaintences who've bought started dogs from me and they swear they'll never do it any other way in the future. No problems with them excepting their new owners and going all out for them, the only problem is I only will have a started dog available every 2-3 years or so.

3. As far as the water entry, the water is cold!!! I know a lot of dogs that haven't been out in the water since last fall and now they are not chasing a downed duck, they can be a little apprehensive at first...especially hearing the "go" signal from a new voice. If he went in without to much apprehension or coaxing and seemed comfortable with the water, don't sweat it. If he truly balked at going in and needed to be prodded to do water work he may indeed have issues. One of my all-time favorite Field Champions (who'll remain nameless) gave a no-go to his owner on the water series of the Nationals when it was held here at Kelly farms several years ago. He doesn't have a water problem and was totally amatuer trained. Just something went through his head that day that he wasn't going to hit the water running. That's part of owning a dog.... they'll do things that'll drive you nuts sometimes.

4. Here's what I'd do. Tell them you'll take him provided: you give them half down now and you take him into get his eyes, elbows and hips checked. THEY MUST ALL PASS! (the past posts are correct, you don't want to make this investment and have him go down with a genetic fault) Have your vet clear him physically of other ailments (heartworm, heart murmur, allergies etc.) You get to take him to a shooting preserve and actually hunt over him and confirm he is what you're looking for. And lastly you didn't state if this was through a kennel or a private owner, if it's a kennel, ask them to at least get him running the basic T pattern for hand signals. From there it will be your reponsibility to finish him on handling.

Meeting all this criteria, you will provide the second half of the payment and recieve the registration papers.

I know this is a long post, but you want to make an informed decision and not rush into the purchase. If you have specific questions, feel free to e-mail at ken at wincolandscape dot com

Good Luck with your decision....

Ken

[jlm]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I appreciate it. I checked around and found finished dogs anywhere from $2500 to $4000. This dog is NOT finished and I saw some things that made me think twice. He was a nice dog but I do not think I am willing to take the risk. Ok, so lets say I go with a started pup. Anyone have a line on started yellow labs? I have checked a few places and there are some available in MN. What is a fair price for a good quality yellow lab pup? How about a started pup?

Labs, we posted about the same time so I did not see what you wrote above. Thanks for taking the time to explain things a little better. Great advice. You will be getting an email from me a little later with some questions. Thanks again!

[This message has been edited by jlm (edited 05-17-2004).]

[duckbuster]

Does it have to be Yellow? I know a trainer in St. Cloud who I believe justed washed out a Black derby dog over the weekend. This dog was on the same truck as mine this winter and I can tell you he will handle, he has good size, good pedigree and a great temperment. He is 18-20 months old. Let me know and I can probably get you a price.

[LABS4ME]

Hey D.B., how'd that pup of yours do on her inaugeral run in the derby? Hope things are falling nicely into place. Nothing more exciting than watching that pup go out and compete / do their business the 1st time. Like watching your kid take his 1st duck or score his first touchdown or homerun.

Good luck on the future events... I hope Dave's dog is ready in July so she has the ability to run a couple months of Derby before going into QAA.

Talk to you soon.... Ken

[Benny]

I have a 5 month old lab that I am going to hand off to a trainer in two weeks.The cost to train for 4 weeks is $575 +$125 for birds, this will take her to the stage of a reliable hunting dog who is collar conditioned,birdy,quarters,water intro,boat intro,lots of birds shot over her and all my work for obediance will be firmed up to the point of stop on a dime when told to.
I paid $250 for the pup and ended up paying for the worming, and all the shots because I didn't ask enough questions of the seller.

I expect to pay another $600.00 to $800.00 to finish her out so she will do muliple retrieves,blind retrieves,hand and whistle controls.
If I wanted to go further to the trials quality that would add another $600.00 at least.

Right now with just me working with her I have her some what obediant,will retrieve easy muliple retrieves if she see's them thrown.But I need to get her on birds and water.
It is hard to do living here in the North metro with a couple of Green people living across the circle.They didn't like it when I was tossing the fake pheasent dummy and called the cops.
Police officer laughed about it but said he had to come out to investigate the complaint.

Water is another problem, nearist lake I can get to to train her with out a crowd is Coon Lake and it is 30 minutes away.

I would advise looking for a younger dog, say around a year and a half.At that age and if trained well the dog should do what ever you want it to do.

LABS4ME!!!!Please email me, I want to ask you a question off the forum!
[email protected]

Thanks, Benny

[This message has been edited by Benny (edited 05-17-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Benny (edited 05-17-2004).]

[jlm]

Duckbuster, I would be interested for sure. I would prefer a YL but will also consider others. Thanks a lot!

[duckbuster]

Shoot me your e-mail address and I will get you his name and phone #.

[jlm]

Thanks Duckbuster!

[Bryce]

Let me know the trainer that can get my dog to trial quality for just over $2000 and I'll send my whole next litter to him. Can't be done unless our definition of trial quality is way off. Embarrassed to say what I plan on spending on the next Spankylabs pup to get her hopefully to the Master Hunter level. $2000 is a nice payment for part of a year. Good article in the April/May issue of Wildfowl mag. regarding started dogs. $3500-5000 is what I would expect to pay for a good started dog and would still expect one or two quirks.