Is this out of line?

[BobT]

Economic conditions must be pretty good for contractors on the iron range, eh?

Yesterday my mother-in-law told me that she had a contractor bid to replace the shingles on a section of her house. The house contains three roofs. The main center part of the house is 2-stories with a gable roof running east-west at about a 6/12 pitch. Attached to the south side is a single story gable roof running north-south at about a 5/12 pitch. Attached to the north side is a single story gable roof running north-south also at about a 5/12 pitch. This roof also extends across the front of the house about 6 feet out over a porch area.

The contractor’s bid to replace the shingles over the center main section of the house was $3,500.00. Don’t ask me why she didn’t have him include the entire roof but she claimed that the bid was only for that middle section. I would guess maybe about 10 squares with no valleys, vents, and a notch around the chimney. They won’t even require scaffolding because they could stand on the lower attached roof sections to work on the starter runs.

Although the workmanship is…well let’s just say less than professional…in September of 2007 her sons replaced the roof over the south attachment because it was leaking. When that south roof was done, the material cost was about $50.00 per square including 20-year 3-tab shingles, ice barrier, starter strip, felt, drip edge, and disposal. Even if the material cost has increased by 50% since then, the material cost for the 10 squares would be about $750.00. That means he’s charging at least $275.00 per square for the labor! That really sounds high to me.

Four years ago I hired a contractor to put a new roof and siding on my home. I chose 40 year architectural shingles with a 90 mile per hour wind rating. The project included tear off and disposal of the old roofing and siding, furring out and sheathing the entire roof, building soffits, and adding a dormer over the front entry. My roof has a 12/12 pitch with four valleys plus two attached lower roofs over the front and rear porches at 5/12 pitches. The entire project cost me just over $16,000.00 and took the crew of three about 5 days.

What really makes me want to stop and say, “Hmmm” is that he charged her $75.00 just to bid on the job. I figure this contractor has way too much work to do and doesn’t want the job. She just figured that’s how things were done. I personally would have to be in very serious need before I would even remotely consider paying for a bid. In my opinion this seems nothing short of a contractor taking advantage of the naivety of a divorced elderly woman. Needless to say, for now I told her not to hire this contractor and not to pay for any more bids. If a contractor wants work, he’ll bid it without a fee.

I think maybe I might have to consider bidding on this job myself and plan some vacation time from my regular job.

Bob

[sparcebag]

thats only one bid. get some more,dont pay for them tho!Were you involved in the first family roof in 07? If so a contracter should do the work.At 10 sq 350.00 a square sounds high but I've been out of the Buss. for a long time,it may be reasonable?

I'm sure roofer can give a avg.per sq. charge when he replies.

It may be wise for you to get a contracter anyway,with your costs of leaving work and doin the job and no guarentee or warrentee on the work.

[bak2MN]

NEVER PAY FOR A BID!!!!!!

That seems awful high sounds like a pretty easy roof to shingle I think the guy was taking her for a ride. I have done alot of jobs and that just seems crazy.

[Roofer]

Would love to get paid for a bid! Some are charging now. Too many people just wasting your time and with fuel prices, it was killing us.

Shingles alone are near $100 a square. With the underlayment required, you are closer to $150 just for material. $350 a square is a little high, but it's a small job.

Bob, if you are licensed and insured, go give her a bid. It's about $500 a year for licensing and $4000 a year for insurance.

We usually give the older people a little better deal, especially when they are local. There is a bunch of work out there that will pay very well. Most guys aren't going to drop any of them for a 10 square job.

This is how it's supposed to work for a successful real Business/Company in this day and age.

25% for material

25% labor

25% overhead

25% profit

At 10 square X $150 = $1500, that's more like 40% just for material on a $3500 job.

Our price would be very similar, but we aren't all that success as far as making big money. It's very tough with the hacks and people just plainly not having money.

[bryguy247]

Roofer has a great point. I am also a licensed Contractor with experience in roofing, siding, and windows. If you do have a professional roofing company, that is insured, the average in this area is $300 to $350 a square for asphalt shingles (material and Labor). We do not charge for estimates, even though some days it would be nice to.

Yes you can hire people cheaper, there will always be someone cheaper. Just be very careful on what you decide. And I think you know what I mean by that, the cheap guy is usually cheap for a reason. And if the high guy has been in business for a long time, he is still in business for a reason.

With that said: get more estimates and a past customer list.

I Hope the project goes great for you.

[Jethro80]

Roofer has a great point. I am also a licensed Contractor with experience in roofing, siding, and windows. If you do have a professional roofing company, that is insured, the average in this area is $300 to $350 a square for asphalt shingles (material and Labor). We do not charge for estimates, even though some days it would be nice to.

Yes you can hire people cheaper, there will always be someone cheaper. Just be very careful on what you decide. And I think you know what I mean by that, the cheap guy is usually cheap for a reason. And if the high guy has been in business for a long time, he is still in business for a reason.

With that said: get more estimates and a past customer list.

I Hope the project goes great for you.

I agree,You get what you pay for. I have found this out myself. Too many hacks out there that are just getting their feet wet in the trades and call themselves professionals

[BobT]

I appreciate the info. $150/sq for materials? Wow! I didn't realize the cost had increased that much. I expected it had gone up with the price of crude but...

If the materials are that high then I can understand the price. I suspect that part of it too has to do with the fact that it is a small job. The cost of dragging all your tools and crew to a place for a day or two must also be considered. With that in mind, she might get a lot better bang for her buck to hire them to do the entire roof, which I estimate would be about 24 square. It wouldn't take a professional crew that much longer but the cost to get there would be about the same.

As far as people wasting a contractor's time by getting bids, would it not be a waste of time if the contractor wins the bid? In other words, make the bid competetive enough that it doesn't waste your time.

Unfortunately, that might prove very difficult if your bidding against nonprofessionals that don't pay as well and aren't insured or bonded. This is where I think the contractor needs to do a good job of selling his credentials. As already mentioned, you get what you pay for and in this case you pay for quality workmanship and after the sale service to back it up. This has value too and I will try to have her keep this in mind.

Bob

edit: Oh, and by the way, I was hoping to get a response from you, roofer. you've put it a little more into perspective for me. Thanks.

[Roofer]

I hope it works out for you. I can understand it's tough to swallow when you get a bid for things nowadays. How does a person come up with $10,000 for repairs on a house? Being in the trades, I totally understand because it is hard to make a living, especially in MN with the weather, laws, codes, etc.

It is very hard to be competitive. We go strictly by referrals, and hardly ever advertise. Have yet to run out of work. Some people just don't understand. They think buying a roof, windows, siding, or even a whole house, is like buying a carton of eggs. They are the same at walmart as they are at the gas station, so why not get the best price. This is comparing a retail item to a profession and experience. When you work in a field for so long with so many products, you get to know what works and what doesn't. It's not like a factory where you use the same things every day.

Some others also might say, why not just head out to Menards and pick up some shingles and do it yourself. It's just not the same as buying some 2x4's and building a shed. It's really sad when the bottom dollar speaks louder than anything else when it comes to your most expensive asset.

I would suggest to anyone to get referrals. Sometimes there is a reason for the prices. Your contractor would be able to explain this to you if you give them the chance.

[BobT]

I also think that in many cases people forget that roofing is more than just slapping shingles on a roof. Building codes today require much more and some of the required materials can be a little spendy.

Bob

[npsmokefan]

I am also a lic. contractor and I can't wait for the day when all contractors see the benefit of charging for a estimate. I have been testing the waters of charging and I am planning to start charging for all estimates as soon as things turn around. If a homeowner is not willing to pay $49.00 for a estimate on a project of $10000 plus, then mostly likely I will not be getting that job anyway. They are only shopping price and nothing else. I looked back over the past two years and anyone that called for a estimate and asked if we give free estimates. I did not get that job. Nearly all my work is off referrals as are most good contractors and charging for estimates will defintely week out the tire kicking and the lowest price shoppers. However I do not charge for estimates on referral work.

GO SMOKE DAYTONA AROUND THE CORNER

[BobT]

I respect your decision and I hope it works out for you but put yourself in the buyer's position. If I have to pay $50 or more just to have someone stop out and estimate what he will be charging me for a job, it kind of puts a damper on my ability to seek other potential providers as it could cost me hundreds in order to comparative shop with due diligence.

Are you that insecure about your product/service? Seems to me that if you were secure about it you would feel pretty confident that you would find adequate work without charging for bids. I would think that you already consider the cost of bidding (overhead) into your pricing structure anyway, do you not?

Personally, I figure anyone that feels he needs to charge a fee for his estimate, doesn't want the job very much and as a result I wouldn't feel I as a potential customer that I could trust him enough to give it to him.

Bob

[Roofer]

A car repair shop charges for diagnostics. Really what's the difference. Most that charge for estimates, you get that back if they get the job.

[BobT]

To do diagnostics requires they bring your car into their shop and perform work on it. I would not pay a mechanic to give his diagnosis or estimate based on a verbal conversation and visual inspection however. I have heard of that being done but I have never agreed to pay for one.

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand there are costs involved - driving out to the "maybe" job site, spending hours looking over the proposed project, figuring out what materials will be needed and their costs, determining how many hours you'll spend completing the project and how many employees will be involved and at what costs, writing up the proposal, etc.

To me, bidding on a job is marketing and overhead and those costs should be factored in the bid. That's what we do where I work. I'm often involved from a design perspective with bidding modifications and rebuilds on machinery we sold years ago. Sometimes we can spend entire days and involving many persons looking over drawings, programs, specifications, etc. in order to formulate our bid.

I just finished one recently that took about a day of in-house research by our sales engineer, mechanical designer, myself, and at least three other individuals. It also required a 3-day trip to Florida for a regional salesperson, regional service technician, and me and resulted in me spending a day to develop and write up a theory of operation and then a few hours the next day on a conference call with the plant in Florida, their corporate executives and engineers in who knows where, and us here in MN. I wonder how much it actually cost us in salaries, plane fair, lodging, meals, etc. to get this contract.

This obviously was an extreme example and we included some of the costs for quoting in our bid price but normally when we estimate our hours to complete the job, our markup is designed to cover the cost of bidding and marketing. We wouldn't dream of charging a fee to bid on a job. We'd be laughed out of the market and it wouldn't surprise me if our nearest competitor would be called before we hung up the phone.

I'm just giving you guys my "customer" opinion for what it's worth. You're welcome to take it or leave it.

Bob

[Roofer]

I can see both sides of it. For car repair the customer comes to them. In Construction, the Contractor goes to the customer. That is the big difference.

If you saw my percentages in my other post, there isn't a whole lot of room for overhead.

If it's an insurance job, the Insurance company will pay for bids.

[GSB Ice Man]

I have been thinking about charging for residential estimates also. With the economy going down, the price shopping is only getting worse. I try and give them an approx. square foot price over the phone and explain the number of variables going into an estimate. I can usually tell if they are looking for the low bid after talking with them for a few minutes, and I can also tell if they are interested in getting it done right and on time.

[DrKen]

I thought that the bid was pretty reasonable. Especially if he has to do a tearoff. Just disposing of the old shingles is probably 200 bucks on up. Add up the cost of ice dam, vents, nails etc and it adds up real quick. Ain't nobody in the residential trades getting rich today.

[11-87]

Being in the business I would say the guy may be a little high, but it depends on what his quality of work is too.

I work with contractors every day, and some of them have been at a job bidding 3 or 4 times, and run into people who are just tire kicking. This is a waste of the contractors time too. He spends 2 or 3 hours measuring, getting the bid done, going back to present it and then the homeowner says.. "I got a brother who is gonna help me" All I needed was a price. Then all the time he had in checking with his subs and looking at plans, copying plans with his own money, going to the Lumberyard to get the bid.. Typical Homeowners think they should get something for Nothing. I think everyone should Charge for bids. Then some of the people who are tire kicking wouldn't waste time, and those who are really shopping would have a legitimate investment in their own Job.

The Contractor could say.. I need something for my time to be out here. Cost of fuel.. working with other subs to get your price. But.. If you go with me, I'll deduct the $75.00 fee.

Just Curious.. If a contractor works by the hour What is the Current Rate?

[BobT]

You have valid points about the shopper looking for a price reference with no real intention of buying any bid. I can understand where that can be frustrating for the bidder.

Your idea of applying the bid price back to the project if they buy your bid is a fair option but from a buyer's perspective, I would much rather add the bid price into the project after I buy. The reason I feel this way is because I don't feel that I should have to fork out hundreds of dollars to comparison shop before I make my choice. From a contractor's perspective it works to stifle comparison shopping and therefore reduce competition. From a buyer's perspective it stifles competition shopping reducing their ability to effectively comparitive shop.

Charging for the bid is a sales tactic used to allow the contractor to appear to bid a little lower. It's like a banker advertising home mortgages for a half point lower but when you go in to apply for the note, you learn the closing costs are considerably higher and you haven't really saved anything. Except in this case, you still can opt out without forking out.

There are good and bad points either way. I guess it comes down to how busy or hungry the contractors are at the moment. If business is struggling you may have to scratch the bid price to at least get the opportunity to bid. If business is booming and you're really busy well then I guess you'd have the power to charge for your bid.

Like I eluded to in my original statement. Contractors must be really busy to charge for bids.

Bob

[mikey03]

Another problem when giving bids that has become a huge problem for us is that.. when doing say a job such as a remodel/re siding whatever it may be.. there are the "unknowns". you could get into the job and suddenly see something that you didnt expect! which creates the big problem because either you can be a good honest contractor and try to for see the problems from the get go and put those into your bid.. but usually when you do that people go shopping around and someone else says oh yeah I can do that for cheaper! so they do it... to their suprise at the end of the job they are getting hit with change orders left and right. The best thing to do is take advantage of referrals! like the guys said.. ya get what you pay for. sadly enough for us guys in construction is that there are some bad contractors out there and alot of times homeowners just assume its all of them!

[BobT]

You're probably right about that, at least with a lot of buyers. Not all buyers are that blind.

Bob

[Farmboy1]

Just Curious.. If a contractor works by the hour What is the Current Rate?

I bill my Carpenters out at $50-60/ hour and my Laborers at $40-48 per hour. My rates are based on complete insurance, all fringe, and my overhead.

[BobT]

Sounds reasonable.

Bob

[Juneau4]

Originally Posted By: 11-87

Just Curious.. If a contractor works by the hour What is the Current Rate?

I bill my Carpenters out at $50-60/ hour and my Laborers at $40-48 per hour. My rates are based on complete insurance, all fringe, and my overhead.

Just out of curiosity what do you pay them per hour?

[BobT]

Now you're getting personal. Technically it doesn't matter except to those involved, does it?

I don't care what my employer makes so long as I'm satisfied with my package. If I wasn't, I'd be looking for change.

We worry too much about keeping up with the Jones'.

Bob

[Juneau4]

Thought I was asking Farmboy, it's up to him if he wishes to reply or not.