Bucktails, beginner's 101

[b1gf1sh1]

when starting out the whole concept of how to do this can be overwhelming. what do i need, where do i get it, how's it done, can i even do it? the questions list goes on and on. if your starting out my best advice would be to just ''remake'' one of your own. i don't mean copy it, just cut the wire and replace the wire back like it was. this way you get a feel of what it takes. besides all those bucks you have that are bent, not working right, or need a new hook can be used again. that was why i got into it in the first place, repairing bad baits. then gradually i saw all the options i had that i could'nt find and got into it deeper, then , as one poster so eloquently put it, it turned something akin to crack. what you need: a pair of round nose pliars with large handles and inset elbow joints, a 7 or 8'' pair of needle nose pliars with a strong elbow, a 5-6'' short nose needle nose, a medium long nose vise grips, a medium flat vise grips, a large hook nose/hawk beak vice grips, a quality 8- 10'' sidecutters or at least a nice wire cutters. wire in same size,.051 is most common in muskie baits, although .062 is used in some and even .072 in others but we'll concentrate on .051-.062 .042 is in some too, and used in smaller applications. .035 or .032 in even smaller stuff. where to get, in the metro (where i am) the wire and most tools can be found at thorne bros. the rest at hardware stores. outstate i don't know other than the net. mabe other memmbers can help there. what to do: i put more tools in the list than is probably needed mainly because you may feel more comfortable using one and not the other. for this purpose i'm using just three of them where it's easiest for me but not nessassarily the best for you. change and use 'em all to see what you like. there are things you can build and/or buy to do this but this is beginner's 101. study your bait, look at the distance from the last component to the tie loop, measure it and write it down, not to the wraps but to the bottom of the loop itself, in some the top of the wraps is'nt even right. put your round nose pliars inside the tie loop to see if it reaches the bottom of the shaft. most times it will on bigger stuff, if not mark that spot with something, a marker or whatever. just a dot will do. to study your bait again... to be continued

[b1gf1sh1]

i have to restart because i've had long posts be considered no longer valid and all that typing was wasted, soooo.... study your bait again and see how it's put together, write it down or take a picture if you want, or just lay it out in the next step. cut the tip off, i know this hurts, but just close your eyes and snip it. now open your eyes and carefully remove the parts with wire pointing up and lay them down in order on the table, study how the clevises are on if it's two blades, some overlap some don't. inline blades have no clevis, or buzzblades. some are tied with springs( the hair/feathers) and come off here. if there are hooks you have to cut it again. cut the bottom loop and remove hook/hooks and study it to get an idea of how they are made. put in memmory and set aside. now for the fun part. put your round nose pliars on the wire about 2''s ( your a beginner, later this is shorter), oops i should mention you want 12'' wire for begginer, grip the wire very very tight or it will slide around, and force the wire around the pliars to form a complete loop so it looks like an ''L'' with a loop in the bottom outside corner. look at this L and imagine a loop on the outside bottom corner, that's what you want. ok, now put your short long nose pliars about (this step destroys round nose pliars) 1/4 inch through the loop and grip it where it forms the ''V'' on the longer shaft and bend it back to form what looks like an ''R''. then grip the short end and grip it directly across from and below the bottom of the half loop formed from last step, and bend it back to form what looks like a partly opened cotter pin. now take your hook or splitring and put it on so it's inside the loop. make sure the two bends are touching each other then take your hook nose vise grips, nice because theres open jaws for more room, and grip right where they meet, or just a smidgeon up. lock it down. using any other pliars , except round nose, turn the short wire around the long one, about two or three times and snip as tight as you can. try and keep the wraps close together and tightly wrapped. (oops WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES!!!). there, your first loop. now put everything back on in order and repeat the above loop without the hardware making sure that the round nose pliars is at the distance on the first step of the loop as your prior measurement. and your done. feel free to ask questions. i'll answer what i can until ice out, after that i'll be fishing alot . i am' puter stupid so if anyone has the time and you are able to put pics to these words please take the time. it'll help the rookies... er... beginners.. thanks

[b1gf1sh1]

ok over a hundred hit's no reply's. is this to hard to follow? or is so easy to understand no questions are needed? is anyone ready for step two? also i should mention. in case you did'nt think of it, you can use any wire to practice with. even a paper clip will work to get the feel for it. thinner wire is easy to bend, start there if you like.

[b1gf1sh1]

ok. step 2. basic marabou. tools, all of the above since you have them, also a heavy duty straight rotating bucktail vise. thorne brothers has a decent one for about forty bucks. they have different styles. it's basicly just a long nose vice grips welded to table clamp. fly tying tools, i.e. scissors, bobbins, threader, heavy thread, hard as hull head cement, super glue and talc powder. . good thing to get is a basic tying kit and work from that. also get assorted strung marabou blood quill colors in black, yellow, white, and red. if you see one you like grab it. set your vise up and clamp a 5/0 treble hook (better go cheap to start)by the hook end that lets you spin the vise and have access to all three gaps between hooks. tighten T screw. thread bobbin, lay length of thread long way on shank, secure with one hand and wrap thread around to cover shank with a thin coat. it's ok if you still see hook underneath. apply super glue, 1 drop is good. have talc on plate or something and get a little on your fingers. remove a quill from ( for this purpose we'll do black and white) the black marabou and lay on shank with any curves turned toward hook, wrap 5-6 times, apply super glue, turn vise and repeat with white on next gap between hook and 1 drop glue, repeat on next gap, one drop glue. add talc to fingers if nessasary, if your getting stuck easy you need it. keep adding marabou of the same color in the same gap as you nput there before one feather at a time in each gap until you get the desired bulk you want. always add glue after thread is wrapped. i should mention after the first level you dont need to be so dilegent about turning the curves inward. takes about four or five levels for a decent cover but add more if you want. now form the head with continuous wraps of thread, this is called building the head, about every ten to a dozen turns add glue. after about fourty-fifty wraps add the hard as hull head cement, wrap ten more add more cement, ten more add enough to cover but not alot. use a finishing knot. several half hitches will do. about 5 is ok. let dry until hard, coat with a heavy coat but no drips are wanted. let dry hard. coat one last time. remember this is just a basic tie. i never do it this way anymore but this is for you, the begginner. in advanced the fun starts. using springs to tie on, epoxy and dye for the epoxies, adding glitter, really long heads, eyes, all sorts of fun stuff. never just use superglue as all super glue breaks down in water and makes it all come apart. allways use at least three coats of quality cement. good luck. if this is hard to understand let me know, if it's easy let me know, lol. clean fingers and tools with rubbing alchohol.

[riverrat56]

I just can't read a big block of text, I think there is some great info in there, but breaking it up in paragraphs or something resembling them, I mean were not english majors, were trying to make fishing lures, but I would bet alot of people are not reading everything to the end.

Just offering some advice to why there may be no replys, not trying to critize at all, I read everything and found it to be very informative.

[b1gf1sh1]

don't think twice about it man. no problem. if in the future i post more i'll do that. good advice. was'nt really worried too much about the 0 posts so much as wondering if it was easy to understand or not. you know if ya do something alot you might explain it in a way that can't be easily understood by a begginer.

thanks again for the advice. when i get time i'll put in tying actual bucktails with hair. pretty hard to do first. figured i'd put in feathers first. alot easier.

yup this does look easier to read. i'm not retyping all that so i hope peeps can deal with it

[Neighbor_guy]

Well, I tried it...

I took a #5 musky buck from mepps and cliped it. (Put a [PoorWordUsage] of a notch in my best tin snips too ) Then I snipped the wire from a bottom bouncer and put the hole thing back together. It took three tries but I wanted to take of the #5 french blade and replace it with 2 Colorado's from some old spinnerbaits I was tossing out. Now I am ready to go hole hog.

My question is can I get by with the fly tieing jig that I have or do I need something heavier? And were do I get the raw components? Like I said, before I cut up a $10 bucktail and an old mepps spinner to get the parts to make another. There has to be a spot to get the parts.

[50inchpig]

Neighbor - take a trip down to Thorne and you can get everything you need, if not Staminainc.com has most of the stuff I need

[Cooter]

Bigfish, can you elaborate on laying the maribou curved towards the hook, I can't quit picture it. Thanks.

[50inchpig]

most bou feathers have a slight curve from quill to top, but you actually want to have it curve away from the hook intead of toward the hook

[Cooter]

Kinda what I thought, you get more 'flare' that way. Thanks.

[b1gf1sh1]

 Quote:

but you actually want to have it curve away from the hook intead of toward the hook

really this is a matter of prefference in the long run. i've done it both ways and i've found the hook is hidden better when i turn the first few inward. don't really notice a hook up difference. turning them out does give the bait more volume with less marabou, yes, but i'm tying my own and really put alot on anyway. but to each his own.

in answer to your question cooter, find the thicker quills in your string and start with those curved inward. some curve broadside others sheerside, tie what side curves in for the first few.

also thorne has bucktail tying vises made from long nose visegrips,and a shaftclamp. theres like three mabe four styles and they go for 40 bucks. i made my own with a few modifications for ease of use with springs. but your vise for flys will work, it's just not optimal for holding big hooks and tying room, and for ease of turning the hook. if you want to use springs buy the vise from thorne.. but for here and there it's ok i guess.

[b1gf1sh1]

here's a few pics of some i made up.

above is a ##8 with a red rattle bead in red and white marabou with brass weight forward to offset vertical drop for stop and go retrieves and let's it drop horizontal

above is a olive/yellow ## 10 with the same set up as above without rattle bead and four not two tied springs.

above is a bleeding duckling trailer in four spring tied pattern ## 10's and plenty of beads. not a burner that's for sure.

and above is a slimmed down holo tail with a # 10 silver blade. slimmer for pulling through pods of shad on the croix/sippi.

and last but not least a basic black and white with orange bead and exposed epoxy covered thread.

thanks for looking i'll try and get up a picture tutorial for my original post... gotta find time.

[b1gf1sh1]

just re-read this. ok. in explanation of the marabou. i turn in the feathers on the first level. thats only three feathers. the rest are turned out. out meaning the feathers' curve at the tail end is facing out. this gives me the look i want. there. after reading it again i was even a little confused about what i was saying, lol. still working on time for pics on the bend/tie. more than likely not till winter, since i don't ice fish.

[Nick Kuhn]

Figure I'd bump this as opposed to starting a new thread.

A few questions...

About how long does it take to make a complete bucktail?

Is it difficult to balance a bucktail (ie make sure it rides correctly and the blade spins always)?

I've never looked at Thorne Bros nor does the HSOforum show a whole lot but do they have everything you'd need (at least component-wise)?

Are there any particular tools that are helpful that wouldn't be found in the average garage?

I do have some fly-tying kits that I've never used so I have half the stuff anyway. Looking for a winter hobby. I'm not looking to imitate anything on the market per-say (other than moster sizing some smaller inlines that have worked for me), I'm more of an inventor/experimenter, so I'm hoping to make something unique, yet still able to serve it's ultimate purpose.

[b1gf1sh1]

Quote:

About how long does it take to make a complete bucktail?

it depends on how in depth you want to get. if you just want to wrap a couple springs up and stop at just the hard as hull it's quicker than putting epoxy on top. if you include drying time for the hard as hull it takes a few hours. epoxy pretty much all day. but a bunch can be done in the same time as the others are drying. as far as assembly. around 5 minutes. about five to ten minutes to wrap a spring or a hook. i know a guy that can complete wrap in about two minutes but i'm not that quick. i'll probably always be slow.

Quote:

Is it difficult to balance a bucktail (ie make sure it rides correctly and the blade spins always)?

not really. the best way would be to study other like size baits. everything is pretty standard. after a few you'll get the hang of it. also make sure you use the same size clevis as you see on other baits.

Quote:

I've never looked at Thorne Bros nor does the HSOforum show a whole lot but do they have everything you'd need (at least component-wise)?

Are there any particular tools that are helpful that wouldn't be found in the average garage?

thorne has everything and more. 95 percent is on the fly angler side. plus they are very helpfull in showing you the in's and outs. ask and ye shall be shown. be silent and you won't.

bending consistantly by hand takes practice. theres tools there for makeing wraps but none for .062. word is a .062 wire former needs to be custom made and runs at about 350 bucks for a cheap one, lol. for .051 do a search for ''wire forming tool fishing lure''. or something like that. thorne has the boggs, i never used one. i bought a hagens. i use it for the header wrap on .051 but not for the tail end. won't go close enough for me. not at all for a mepps style bend. with practice you can even bend your own snaps if your in a pinch. if you get a hawk beak/hook nose vise grips,( bigger vise grips make loops easier, about 6-8'') another good sized grips with slightly curved jaws, not flat, a heavy duty medium sized front style wire snips, and a quality round nose pliars your set. quality round nose is at thorne, not sure about the rest i never looked for them. the 30 dollar one. be advised your not walking out of thorne spending less than 250 dollars so be prepared for that. blades, bodies, beads, wire, tools, springs, hair, etc.. it all adds up fast.

good luck vahn. the possibility's are endless when you make your own. glass beads? no problem. if they break just rebend it.

[Nick Kuhn]

be advised your not walking out of thorne spending less than 250 dollars so be prepared for that.

I'll walk out spending well under that... I've got enough pliers and vices to bend any size copper or aluminum into any shape (that's what an electrical background will do for you), I don't think I'll be buying any tools. Sure steel is a tougher metal, but I'm sure I can work with it. I have plenty of hair already, as well as cement and thread. Really all I need is the wire, beads, blades, clevises, and bodies.

[b1gf1sh1]

Quote:

I'll walk out spending well under that... I've got enough pliers and vices to bend any size copper or aluminum into any shape (that's what an electrical background will do for you), I don't think I'll be buying any tools. Sure steel is a tougher metal, but I'm sure I can work with it. I have plenty of hair already, as well as cement and thread. Really all I need is the wire, beads, blades, clevises, and bodies.

depending on what you want to do you still may need to spend close to that on the above supplies. if you don't have a quality round nose pliers you need one. unless you don't mind squared loops. not fenceing round nose, they are made for making perfect loops in smaller diameter wire. cheap ones don't last very long. they get chewed up and break in a hurry. a board with nails in it spaced right and cut down will work but round nose are easy cheesey once you do about a dozen or so. solid brass beads and bodies will be your most spendy item. you'll walk out spending 100+ dollars if you only want one color and style. like all brass or all nickle plated in a stacker style and a couple size beads. and to match the amount of the bodies you'll need to get as many blades or twice for two blade spinners. they aint cheap when you get to size 9 or up. they had nothing but .062 wire last time i was there in 15'' lengths. little over kill but good. like 50 cents apiece. FYI, the three days following thanksgiving they are having a huge blowout sale on everything in the store.

don't forget to try some coils to tie on. at least they are cheap.

[b1gf1sh1]

well i have the tutorial for the simple eye wrap all done with pics. i've been having trouble lately getting pics to work off of photo-bucket. so i put a tutorial on my HSOforum for those interested. the bend in the beginning of this thread is not a beginners bend sorry. so i used an easier one for the tutorial. please feel free to post comments here so everyone can learn what your asking in case they want to ask the same thing. also if you would i'd like to know if it's good or if it needs tweaking. thanks.

of course, also feel free to check out the other areas of my HSOforum

[Nick Kuhn]

Quick question on clevises, which size do you need for .051 and .062 wire? Size 4 for .051 and size 6 for .062, or will that be too tight to spin freely?

[b1gf1sh1]

i use a #6 and a #8. your main worry is just matching the blade. there needs to be enough room to swing free near the hole the clevis goes through. if the blade touches the wire, then size up. if the wire goes through the hole in the clevis and it spins freely there not going to be a problen as long as you use beads right. the only way to stop the spin is if theres a slight bend in the wire (which happens,lol)causeing it to bind. if that happens then going bigger on the clevis would have been a better idea.

how you coming on wrapping an eye?