Youth ATVing

[mapache]

I am a newbie here but after reading a few posts it seems this is a group that can help me. We have a cabin near Hackensack, MN and I am interested in ATVing and getting my kids involved in same. However after reading the MN regulations 4 times, a lot of things still are not clear to me. I would like to be able to trailer to nearby state/federal land and trail ride with my kids. Specifically looking at Martineau area near Akeley, and Chippewa National Forest, off of the wood tick trail. My kids are ages 12 and 9 this summer. ATV dealer tells me 12 and under is 90cc max and 10 and under 50cc max, but MN regs say over 12 with an adult and training permit is ok. Also not clear whether the "under 12's" permited on state trails on atv but looks like they might be on legal on motorcycle. Bottom line is would very much appreciate any suggestions on the basics of what is and is not permitted within the rules and also any suggestions on fit/beginner basics for the kids. They are athletic and conservative, but certainly don't want to overpower them out of the blocks for safety reasons, and also don't want to end up with machines they outgrow in 6 months. Appreciate your insights.

[Dave S]

What the dealer told you is correct based on the manufacturer requirements. THEY CANNOT AND WILL NOT sell you a full size ATV if they know your kids will be riding it.

However, the MN DNR does allow for kids age 10-11 to ride a machine on public lands and frozen waters without safety training that is 90 cc or less.

Age 12 and older may ride a machine only if they meet the fit requirements of the machine, have completed the MN DNR ATV safety program, and are accompanied by an adult 18 or older. I will let you research the remainder of the laws that pertain to your 12 year old (it's basically common sense things).

Your 9 year old will have to double up with someone 18 or older.

When looking to purchase a machine intended for use by your kids, never buy a machine they can "grow into". Youth machines hold their resale quite well. Also don't over estimate their abilities. The catch 22 on allowing your kids on a full size machine is there are other legal issues you can run into if they do get hurt depending on the circumstances.

Also never let your kids lead the way. Keep them in between full size machines/safety conscious adults.

Another point is kids age 11 can go through the ATV safety training, but their certificate is not valid until their 12th birthday. This means that although they have successfully completed the DNR course, they are still limited to machines 90cc or smaller until their 12th birthday.

I hope I covered what you're looking for. If you have more questions, let me know. I'm more than happy to help you out. I see there are ATV courses filling up the DNR site and I have yet to schedule mine for spring.

[mapache]

Does a 9 year old on a motorcycle have more flexibility to go on trails. This is the confusing part.

[Dave S]

The DNR site appears to be down in order for me to verify the information for 9 year olds on OHM's. But regardless of age, the trails need to be designated for OHM's in order to be legal. After reviewing my book of maps that is now outdated, there are several OHM trail near Akeley. But I'm not 100% certain of the legal age to ride or if the trails are dual usage.

Once the DNR site is back up, I can have an answer for you. The OHM section begins on page 34 and should have a minimum age required to operate an OHM on state trails.

Sorry I couldn't be more help. My expertise is more with ATV's.

[kwiggy]

Research the motorcycle option thoroughly as trails for motorcycles are VERY limited. They cannot ride in any ditch in MN, unless that ditch is part of an authorized trail for motorcycles. I went that option for my son and am regretting now. There are no OHM trails where we ride just south of Bemidji. I have also noticed the price of used motorcycles have dropped in the past 6 months (maybe it's a winter thing) or maybe other people are in my predicament. Good luck with your decision.

[castmaster]

"However, the MN DNR does allow for kids age 10-11 to ride a machine on public lands and frozen waters without safety training that is 90 cc or less.

Age 12 and older may ride a machine only if they meet the fit requirements of the machine, have completed the MN DNR ATV safety program, and are accompanied by an adult 18 or older. I will let you research the remainder of the laws that pertain to your 12 year old (it's basically common sense things)."

I dont find much common sense in a law that lets 10 & 11 yr olds loose on our trails without any MN DNR Safety program or passing any fit requirements. So a kid can ride for 2 YEARS without any of this stuff, then turns 12 and must jump through hoops to CONTINUE riding. This is the equivalent of letting a kid drive a car on the roads at 14 & 15 without any requirements other than a parent be with them, then making them take a drivers license test at 16!

[Scott K]

If you think the atv ones dont make sence, I think the youth hunting ones are even worse!

For atv's under 12 you can only ride 90cc or less, they cant be out on the trails by them selves. 12 and up, they could legally ride a can am, if they fit the machine, however I wouldnt recommend it. At the age of 10-11, I dont think if they were to take the atv test they would totally understand it, but they figure at age 12 more of the info will sink in, and the comprehend it more.

[Dave S]

castmaster,

I don't write the laws, but I do my best to teach them in my classes.

Let's not jump on the DNR for trying to make for an enjoyable family outing on ATV's. There are a lot of factors weighed in when they made the decision to set the age requirements where they did.

1) maturity level

2) comprehension level

3) size

4) motor skills

They realize that riding ATV's has become a growing family activity and have done as good as anyone could to make it possible for more people/families to enjoy the trails.

At some point, parents should be responsible enough to teach their kids a good set of morals and ethics. 2 years of riding experience on the trails prior to taking the MN DNR course will help build a better understanding of all aspects of riding ATV's. At age 12, many kids have developed enough to understand the criteria in the classroom and will hopefully become safer, more responsible riders.

[Dave]

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

I dont find much common sense in a law that lets 10 & 11 yr olds loose on our trails without any MN DNR Safety program or passing any fit requirements.

For one, they're not let loose. And, I think it'd be hard to find a 10 or 11 year old that can't pass the fit requirement of a 90cc machine. Most 8 year olds would pass that requirement on a 90cc machine.

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

So a kid can ride for 2 YEARS without any of this stuff, then turns 12 and must jump through hoops to CONTINUE riding.

I think this is very good since, like Lep stated, ATVing has grown into a family recreation. I couldn't take my sons out on public trails to teach them riding, since this law wasn't intact yet. They rode a lot on our private land or had to ride with me on my machine. And, there's actually no hoops to jump through when they do turn 12 and take the ATV safety. AT 12, they can comprehend the regulations better. My youngest turned 12 last fall so, this is all behind us now but, my opinion is, this should make better, more responsible, young riders when the can ride a larger machine after turning 12. My 12 year old rides a Sportsman 500 most of the time and "fits" the machine just fine. He fits the machine better than some older smaller framed riders. Could he get into trouble in certain situations riding a 500? Absolutely. Can I, at my age? Absolutely.

[castmaster]

Like I said, its no different than having parents allow their kids to start driving their cars at 14, so that they have some experince before going for their permit test at 15 and then a real license at 16...make any sense? If a 10 year old is to "immature" to understand the rules and whats expected of them then IMO they arent "mature" enough to operate a motorized vehicle on PUBLIC trails.

IF they are ok to ride at 10 $ 11, why all of a sudden they turn 12 and can no longer ride UNLESS they take a safety class?

I see others commenting it gives the ma chance to ride with their parents before getting "licensed". Did something else change then, because my understanding is my daughter CAN NOT ride without a parent or guardian riding with her until she is 15 or 16 years old?

And dont get me wrong, I completely understand some of the thinking on this as my daughter was one who was stuck riding private land waiting to turn 12 so she could take her class/test. So how about maybe do it like the regular driving tests....some sort of class with the basics of safety, rules etc for a "trainers permit" from 10-11 and then the full class at 12.

Or else just do away with the whole works!

[Dave S]

Your daughter cannot ride alone until she's 16.

As far as kids riding on public lands prior to turing 12 and taking the test is a little different than being in a car on improved roadways. This is turning into an apples to oranges debate.

Not being mature enough to take a test does not, in any way, mean that they don't have the motor skills to operate a machine 90cc or less. Some kids just cannot take a written test. I was one of them when I was a kid. Some kids learn more by doing the activity which in turn makes it easier for them to understand the written criteria that's put infront of them, or in my case, I have a powerpoint presentation, so everything is on a screen.

[Scott K]

I was racing motorcross when I was 6, but I gaurentee you that at that age I wouldnt be able to tell you any laws. What I knew was taught to me, and I learned the safety issues also, some the hard way. Most kids age 10-11 cant get into much trouble with a 90cc. But when they turn 12 they can ride any size atv, as long as they fit it, and most can. So there is a huge step there from 11 to 12, and along with the huge step is responsibility, which is taught in the atv safety course.

[Dave]

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

Like I said, its no different than having parents allow their kids to start driving their cars at 14, so that they have some experince before going for their permit test at 15 and then a real license at 16...make any sense?

Legally, I wish we had that option for autos. Start to train youth while out in the boondocks. Don't know the facts but my South Dakota relative's kid starting driving out there - ALONE - when he was younger than 16.

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

If a 10 year old is to "immature" to understand the rules and whats expected of them then IMO they arent "mature" enough to operate a motorized vehicle on PUBLIC trails.

We're talking 90cc machines here. Some kids ride bicycles faster on PUBLIC land.

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

So how about maybe do it like the regular driving tests....some sort of class with the basics of safety, rules etc for a "trainers permit" from 10-11 and then the full class at 12.

I can't see how now having two "tests" would really help here. A) The present way puts the responisbility on the parents (where it should be already) to help educate their kid. And, where would the extra funds and volunteers come to run this exatr class/test? These safety programs are available through the generosity of people like LEP who volunteer hours and hours to help others learn to ride safely. Some parents aren't doing it!

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

Or else just do away with the whole works!

I would vote for that and take full responsibilty for MY kids who ride. It would be great if all parent's did that but, obviously that hasn't happened.

[Dave S]

I also encourage the parents to sit in classroom during the course because there's just as much for them to learn as for the kids.

I borrowed some x-rays from a friend who had a bad wreck on an ATV and also offered some graffic vocal depictions of "THEIR" kids being in that situation. No less than half of the parents had to look away. It was definitely an eye opening experience for them.

[Macgyver55]

 Quote:

I would vote for that and take full responsibilty for MY kids who ride. It would be great if all parent's did that but, obviously that hasn't happened.

I agree, but sadly it never will! I know Dave spends a lot of time with his boys and I would be less afraid to be on a trail with his kids than with many adults. Wouldn't it be great if everyone took responsibility seriously like that?

Parents need to teach their kids instead of "babysit" them with toys. Thats what started all the controversy that got all of this going. Too many parents would buy an ATV, tell the kids to "be careful" and send them on their way. A sure fired recipe for disaster. Then, when something happened, they would be the first one lining up a lawyer to sue the manufacturer because the "machine" injured their kid.

I taught my kids myself well before the current laws were enacted, but much of what they learned is what is taught today. My daughters spent many hours learning to ride my ATVs with old dad on the back. I figured if they can ride safely with me on the back, that handling it alone would be that much easier. (Besides, I'm selfish, I only had one ATV and didn't want to miss out on seat time.) Now, they are both in their 20s and either one can jump on and take a ride if they choose and know how to ride safely, respect the ability of the machine and keep it under control.

[castmaster]

Again, I understand the arguments to be made for it, just doesnt pass my "common sense" test. A guy goes into a dealership on a Friday morning to pick up the machines he just bought for himself and his 2 kids, one 13, one 10. As soon as they load up and pull out the 10 yr old can go with dad and ride anywhere in the state, but the 13 yr old has to go home until he can get into a class and take a test. That passes your "common sense" test?

Has the laws changed on size restrictions too? My understanding when my daughter went was that unless they tested on a larger machine 12-16 yr olds werent allowed on anything over 90cc either correct? So their goes that argument. Maybe just require the test when they are ready to move up to a more adult size machine.

And as a parent who went with my child and participated in the class I can say NO ONE FAILED AS THE TEST WAS TAKEN AS A GROUP! I think a 10 yr old would have had no problem with it, and again if a kid's been riding safely and been taught by his parents for 2 years, how do they suddenly become unsafe upon their 12th birthday? I guess I just dont get it or something!!

[castmaster]

Hey guys, I guess some of my viewpoint on this comes from the class my daughter attended. We had went through the cd, done each pre test together talked about everything etc. Showed up kind of expecting something a little more formal or official and was surprised at how it was geared towards making sure no kid failed. To me it seemed like it offered less in training or safety than even what she learned in the DNR CD they send out, let alone in the riding time with dad.

So on this one guess were probably just goingto have to agree to disagree. Hope you all have a fun '08 season on the trails...and keep your machines rubber side down!!

[Scott K]

The size limitation has changed. 90cc under 12, and as long as the child fits the machine properly, (requirements in the book) they can ride any machine out there at age 12 but must be with an adult, and class completed. I agree since most classes are held in a group the 10 yr old wouldnt fail it, but I think the point is that the 10 yr old would get everything out of the class that the 12 yr old would.

[Dave S]

castmaster,

where did your daughter take the course? The reason I ask is in the beginning, I conducted my classes in a similar fashion.

Based on responses from students and parents, I have now made some changes in how I conduct my classes. As a matter of fact, I had to fail my first student last year. I could say it's not something that I'm not proud of, but to be honest with you, I am proud that I did it. It showed the student, and most importantly the parent, that riding ATV's isn't something to be taken lightly. It didn't help that the student had no prior experience or had ever been on an ATV.

[Dave S]

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

A guy goes into a dealership on a Friday morning to pick up the machines he just bought for himself and his 2 kids, one 13, one 10. As soon as they load up and pull out the 10 yr old can go with dad and ride anywhere in the state, but the 13 yr old has to go home until he can get into a class and take a test. That passes your "common sense" test?

In this scenario, I would have to say at this point now that the DNR course has been out for a few years, this would be poor planning on the parent's part.

As far as the size requirements, it has always been they need to meet the fit requirements. They might fit a Honda Recon or Suzuki Ozark, but would be too small for a larger machine like a Rincon or Grizzly.

The easiest way to put it is they need to fit any machine they intend to ride.

[Dave]

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

Again, I understand the arguments to be made for it, just doesnt pass my "common sense" test.... As soon as they load up and pull out the 10 yr old can go with dad and ride anywhere in the state, but the 13 yr old has to go home until he can get into a class and take a test. That passes your "common sense" test?

I don't think anyone here intends to argue, CM, just having different interpretations of what's going on. I usually just moderate you guys but enjoy hearing viewpoints on youth topics. In your eample above, what size machine would the 13 year be riding? I don't know the stats but would bet the accident rate for a 90cc machine is very low. When my son was 13, he was actually too big/tall and a 90cc machine was more unstable than an adult machine. If your example was a 13 year old on a 90cc, I see your point; why should he not be able to ride and the younger one can. I would say, gathering all the info showed parents wouldn't buy a 90cc for a 13 year old (I certainly would not) and studying kid's "average" size and intelligence level into play, the decision was made to allow 12 year olds to be tested on adult machines, if they fit it.

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

Has the laws changed on size restrictions too? My understanding when my daughter went was that unless they tested on a larger machine 12-16 yr olds werent allowed on anything over 90cc either correct? So their goes that argument. Maybe just require the test when they are ready to move up to a more adult size machine.

I think I'm understanding what you're saying. At 12 years old, that's when my sons were ready for a larger machine. I'm not positive but, I believe the ATV age follows the snowmobile safety certificate age limit.

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

And as a parent who went with my child and participated in the class I can say NO ONE FAILED AS THE TEST WAS TAKEN AS A GROUP!

Both of mine took the class as a group. The youngest was just last fall when he was 11. The test, however, was not taken as a group. Firearm safety was the same way, study as a group and take the test sitting right next to the other kid.

 Originally Posted By: castmaster

I think a 10 yr old would have had no problem with it, and again if a kid's been riding safely and been taught by his parents for 2 years, how do they suddenly become unsafe upon their 12th birthday?

It's not that the kid became unsafe at 12, the recreation needed an age in which to start to help decrease the accidents kids were having on ATVs, I think. One way would be to teach them at an age where they are old enough to "get it". Some adults should take the course, too, because we've all seen 'em out there that don't "get it" either.

[castmaster]

Lep,

My daughter took the class at Diggers in Prior Lake. The test was taken as a group, and all were told when they arrived to have fun and not to worry, NO ONE FAILS!! The questions were asked to the group, answers discussed and then test sheets marked with the correct answer. Every kid scored 100%! Heck most of the parents hadnt even went through the CD with their kids prior to test day and were still allowed to test.

"In this scenario, I would have to say at this point now that the DNR course has been out for a few years, this would be poor planning on the parent's part."

Lets remember that these test arent available every day at every location throughout the state. I know my daughter turned 12 in April but it was into June before there was a test in our area that still had openings. Many were filled within days of being posted, and often had people signed up from the season prior.

[Dave S]

cm,

first off, I'd like to say thanks to you for staying civil. Not many people would in a discussion such as this. So again, I say THANKS!!!!!

The group testing issue that you mentioned isn't something that is encouraged by the DNR. I find it ironic how many instructors have done it this way. Heck, I have even talked to FAS Instructors who have conducted their classes in the same fashion.

I can't vouch for all instructors, but if someone called me in a pinch who had a trip planned and needed a couple kids in the training, I would do my best to accomodate them. I had this happen a couple years ago where I had 5 kids that needed training.

I have to apologize for my past remark as far as the planning issue. I didn't read into your example like I should have. Families schedules will sometimes prohibit planning for the safety course.

It's good to see you kids have a father who is interested in getting them involved in outdoor activities in a respectable manner and you take the initiative to ensure their legal when they ride.

What I would like to see is for the DNR to create a more standardized course for the instructors to follow i.e. a power point presentation with the test incorporated in the presentation. This would help save some of the cost of the booklets being mailed out and the printing and paper expense.

The initial course was created in conjunction with ATVAM and I can honestly say that I don't totally agree with the format they provided us while training to become an instructor. On the flip side, we are at liberty to make minor changes in our course as conditions allow.

I am seriously thinking about doing some minor changes to the presentation that I created and offering this to the DNR to hand out to other instructors. It would definitely keep some consistency between the classes whether it's in Le Sueur or up in Thief River Falls.

[castmaster]

Lep,

Thank you as well sir! Thank you for answering some questions I had and for setting the record straight on some things that have changed that I wasnt aware of(I had no idea that over 12 was now allowed on any size machine as long as they meet the fit requirements) and thank you VERY MUCH for the time you give to conduct these classes/tests!!!

[Dave S]

kids 12 and over on full size machines is something the instructor should have talked about at the class. But that is the growing pains of a new program. This also reaffirms my belief that the DNR needs to have a standardized classroom presentation. That way we ensure all information is presented in every class and not info based on the instructors memory or interpretation of the laws or even personal beliefs.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to hang anyone out to dry here. After all, the MN DNR volunteers have provided over $7 million in services in the last year.

Just imagine where this state would be if there were no volunteers in any capacity like the Lions, Masons, Jaycees, Rotary, or volunteers in schools. It may not seem like it some days, but this really is a great state we live in.