vid for the lurkers

[Roofer]

This is old and not in MN, but it's worth a look. I don't know who made it and it may have been on here before, but I think it's time for it.

video

[Scott K]

Great video! And so true!

[B_King]

That video definately makes some good points!

[SomethingFishy*]

Great video, Thanks for the post.

[Hammer Handle]

Great points, but totally one-sided of course.

Notice how his truck was all mud at the end? I wonder where he dug in and kicked up that mud?

I agree with a lot in the video, but disagree with some too.

[mn650]

That video is great. It shows what a wonderful sport we have and shows the devotion to it.

Quote:

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Notice how his truck was all mud at the end? I wonder where he dug in and kicked up that mud?

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To me this is what is wrong with society today. Quick to jump on the bandwagon and make statements for no apparent reason. That is not full of mud, those are speckles that can be made crossing mud on a paved road.

[Hammer Handle]

Being a land owner who closed his snowmobile trail through his land due to 4-wheelers tearing it up (who were not allowed), I guess I will jump to conclusions.

If off-roaders were all like the ones in the vid, there would be no issues. One bad apple spoils the bushel.

[Macgyver55]

Quote:

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Being a land owner who closed his snowmobile trail through his land due to 4-wheelers tearing it up (who were not allowed), I guess I will jump to conclusions.

If off-roaders were all like the ones in the vid, there would be no issues. One bad apple spoils the bushel.

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I consider myself to be one of the good apples when riding, and there are far more good off-roaders than there are bad. I ride both snowmobiles and 4 wheelers, so your post doubly affects people like me. Whether on a sled or wheeler I never trespass, I will turn back at the first sign I see and try to ride only where it is allowed. I obey the laws as best as I can. I wish everyone were the same, but unfortunately that isn't the case! The best I can do in my situation is appologize for the wrong-doers and hope they don't do it again, which I'm sure is little consolation to you.

Hammerhandle, I have a question for you and I'm asking it humbly and in all seriousness. It sounds like its too late in your case but maybe it will help in other situations. My question is, how can I and other riders (be it snowmobile or 4 wheeler) help to stop this type of thing when we have no more idea who does the damage than you do? I understand and respect that it is your property and you are free to do what you want with it, but I don't understand punishing everyone for the actions of a few. I believe punishing the offenders is a far better way to discourage this behavior. If the state were to use the same methods of punishing violators of outdoor laws, there would be NO fishing, NO hunting, NO boating, NO hiking , NO biking, well basically we couldn't do much of anything because there are bad apples in every user group out there. I wonder what it would be like if fishing were to be closed because one "bad apple" took too many fish? Or if the deer season were shut down because a poacher took one early?

It especially hurts when as a snowmobiler we lose a trail through NO fault of our own and as an ATV rider to lose any trail is a big loss since there are not that many miles of trail to start with.

I hope you are not offended by anything I've said here because that is certainly not my intent. Mainly what I'm trying to convey is the helplessness we (as users) also feel when a land owner closes a trail when there is really nothing we could do or could have done to stop it. If there is something you can think of please let us know!

If you haven't checked with the local clubs in your area it may possibly be beneficial to you in that they would be willing to do trail maintainance and repair to your property and/or install gates or fencing in the off season.

Thanks for listening........

[Hammer Handle]

Good questions.

I used to snowmobile, but don't anymore. Even after I quit, I enjoyed the trail through my land. It has been a trail for as long as I can remember. It also gives me a path to take a walk in the woods and for the deer to follow (great deer hunting spot).

Most, and by far most, of the people on the trail are great. The problem is, I do not live near the trail...so violators rarely get caught. They seem to know this.

I have caught about 5-6 violators over the last 5 years. All were turned in. Yet, it continues. Gates are put up, and they are taken down or driven around. I stretch the gates out widen myself and they are broken down once a month. At the beginning of my land, I have 4-5 warnings and postings...and they are ignored.

After three years of planting trees and having them nearly 100% killing all three years, I decided that was it.

I guess I didn't know what else to do. What would you do? To be honest, 99% of the snowmobilers were great (if not more). 4-wheelers and dirt bikes are not allowed. They are the biggest violators. I always get the same reponse when I catch them and state I will turn them in. "But, where are we supposed to drive?" And, they try to say it is my fault they don't have a place to ride. Many know they are violating as they race away from me, laughing.

Not many people are willing to open up their land. My father did and I carried on the tradition when I bought the land from him. But, the problem gets worse and worse every year. Going through on the trails is great fun, I know, and I can understand when people get mad when trails close.

Good point on fishing and hunting. Why do all have to pay for one? No, it is not fair, I admit. But, it hits home when your property is being defaced. I won't even drive on my land with my truck for I don't want to damage the grass and small trees for the wildlife. Why should I let someone else? Also, fishing is done on non-private waters and if you hunt on non-private land and damage it...it will be taken away also.

What would you do in vehicles were driving in your yard and kills and flattening your grass? Then, after it rains they dig 6 inch holes in your yard. You turn them in, only to have a new violator or the same one take their place.

To me, riding was relaxing. I quit, for for some people it is not about relaxing anymore, but how fast you can go and about how crazy you can be. Fishing is also getting this way. How fast can I race to my spot, etc. It is getting sad.

I guess I am just an "old-timer", although I am only in my 40's.

[Hammer Handle]

FYI

Land is donated for trails (at least ours is). We get nothing in return. Well, we get to use the trail. That is it. We get no payment, no thanks, no nothing. If fact, the land owners used to get a "free pass" to use the whole trail for snowmobiling, but we don't even get that anymore either.

[Roofer]

I understand your problem and how you handled it. I also understand how you feel on the subject.

Although, not to sound like a jerk, but if you want your land to be a perfect park, then you'll have to fence the entire thing off. Maybe it was a mistake having a trail there through property of an owner who does not ride. If an atv'er had this property, I'm sure they would allow the atv's to continue with a few rules to follow. Such as suggested, that a club or someone would fix the trail. No offense to you, but they just picked the wrong property and owner along the trail. After all, it is your land.

I have a property owner just down the road from me with the same situation, but he lives there. I have talked to him and respect his signs, but again he is not an atv'er so he has a different outlook on it just like you.

[Dave S]

that's sad if you open your land to snowmbiles and don't even get a thanks in return for your generosity. Is there a club that approaches you every year? It's your land, lay down the law. There's suffucient funds available through the GIA account that they should at least be paying you a lease for those few months. They could even tap into those funds to put gates up where the trespassing has been occuring.

Either way, trail cams may work in this case if you can hide them well enough. After reading your post, I have no doubt the perpetrators would destroy the camera if they found it. But then again, those who are willingly trespassing, probably don't have registration plates on their machines for an i.d.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Macgyver55]

Sadly then, if I understand your reply here, what you are saying is that there really is nothing we (as lawful riders) could have done or could do in the future to prevent this from happening more?

I'm just looking for workable suggestions from someone who was personally affected and figured you might have some insight. Thanks

[Dave S]

for people like those who are tearing up Hammer's land, the only way to fix them is to confiscate their machines if/when caught by law enforcement. The penalties have to be so severe, they would think twice about riding there again.

And yes, I would support legislation towards this. The best thing we can do is to police ourselves. But depending on the situation, the best avenue is to not confront the individuals personally as Roofer and I saw on our Redtop ride.

Roofer,

what's your take on the guy with the two huskies on the back of his machine? Do you think he could get tagged for too many passengers on his machine?

[Roofer]

I think we have to keep our freedom a little here. Otherwise everyone would ride down the trail being exactly the same following one another like sheep.

I agree with the worse penalty, but first the laws need to be much more clear. It can't be a handbook and a few hundred miles of trails. The only way I see this turning around is with more money involved. And the only way to do that is to get businesses involved. The rules, DNR, and the watershed district slow this process so much it is at a stand still.

There are some people working hard for us, but there is also very smart and well funded people against our sport. Not sure if this battle can be won or even declare peace.

[Dave]

For starters, I know MacGyver and if all riders were like him, the trails would be in better shape after they rode. Actually, Mac, if you want a key to my cabin, just ask. I know you'd leave the place in better shape than before you got there.

Roofer,

Even though I agree with you, that it'll take more money to get more trails and open things up, I really feel the most important thing needed comes from the heart of people and respect for another's property; both private and public. People don't even read a thin regulation handbook now. They always blame others for not understanding and taking the responsibility to know the regulations. Do you actually think they'd read a thicker book of regulations? Whether it'd be staying on the trail or leaving your vehicle unlocked out on public land, if people would only treat things as their own. There's so much ME ME ME in this world, no amount of money will ever fix that.

Hammer....I agree with LEP, there's money available to help repair and mantain the trail through your property. I can understand how you feel and why you made your decision, too.

[Roofer]

I agree with what is being said.

I am refering to the laws not being clear enough for some things. This has been discussed on here before.

The easiest way I see is if there is a trail it should be used and maintained by more than just snowmobiles or just atv's. If there were more "good" people on the trails legally, then the "bad" people would more likely be turned in for their bad behavior or riding.

I also agree it is the riders responsibility to know the rules of the machine they ride, but alot of people don't, including snowmobilers.

I don't see a real good clear cut answer for all of this yet. The only thing I see that can help is to have more legal riding areas on public land.

[Hammer Handle]

Also, keep in mind that the trail I own is only for snowmobiles. The trail is posted (by me and others) that it is only for snowmobiles. The trail is so old, it was there before 3 and 4-wheelers existed.

Yes, more money can fix the trail and what-not. But I camp on this land a lot in the summer for the quiet...and don't want to add ATVs the right to drive on it. They just do. They feel it is their right to drive there just because the trail is there.