shock collars for training puppies, [springer spaniel]

[6028]

anyone have any suggestions on what collar works the best? I don't want to go to crazy on the price, maybe around the $200 dollar range.

[island guy]

I'm far from a expert on dog training but have used and continue to use a tri-tronics sport 60. It's a very durable collar for me. I've used it for 6 years and it has never let me down. It has a audible tone button to go along with the shock button. All dogs are different but I've never had to use the shock feature as the audible works with my dog.

I look at the collar as a tool in training but not the whole answer. Dogs become very collar aware in a short time. Nothing works better in training than being consistent and working your dog every day you can. Training never ends. Mine is 6 years old and I try to get her out and work her at least a minimum of 4 days a week.

I've seen too many friends use a collar as their only training tool. Their dogs spend far too much time in a kennel and not near enough time with one-one ongoing training. Then they wonder why their dog "forgets" the training in the fall.

I'm sure you will get posts from people much more knowledgeable than I. Just my 2 cents worth.

[gspman]

I would suggest not using a eCollar on a puppy. Teach it what you want first. Make sure it knows it's commands inside and out and then transition to the eCollar. How old is your puppy and what are you trying to teach it? What kind of training would you be using the eCollar for? DT, Dogtra and Tritronics seem to get the best reviews. There is another brand that is well regarded too but I don't know what it is, I know it isn't Innotek though.

[springerspeed]

I agree with gspman. You shouldn't even think about putting an eCollar on a pup until atleast 6-8 months of age. Even at this point I would do it so the pup would get used to wearing the collar. The pup needs to know the commands before using an ecollar properly and the best way to teach him the commands is with a lead or check cord. In my opinion an ecollar is to be used to reinforce commands not teach them commands

[Ufatz]

More good advice from the other guys. Don't use an E-collar until you have been working with the dog, and he understands what you want but won't do it. The best trainers in the field KNOW an e-collar is the tool of last resort. It you see a trainer and their ONLY tool is an e-collar run the other way! A lot of guys have trained a LOT of dogs WITHOUT the collars. Do they save time? Yes. Do you HAVE to use them? No.

Go gently. Go slow. Don't abuse your pal.

[Tinkhamtown]

I agree old fashion training first, heel, hup (sit), come, down, stay, kennel, take a pee, correct intro to field, birds, and shot.

Then save the E collar for when your dog questions your authority on commands you deem most important and you know the dog already knows.

That being said I use a half mile range dogtra 200NCP gold, pager (collar vibrates with no shock), nick (short shock with auto shut off), constant (up to a twelve second shock). The dogs ware the collar all the time during training and hunting but I almost never use the shock as the vibrate works wonders.

Than again my dogs normally do what I want them to before I can give them a command.

Letting the dog be who they are and appreciating the fact that they have to put up with me. I don’t cover a lot of ground anymore or I shoot like I used to. Amen.

Tink

[6028]

I have a english springer spaniel, 4months old. I've gotten the basic commands down but he doesnt want to listen real well when i let him outside to do his thing. He likes to run to the neighbors house especially if there outside and from there he will not listen to me when i call him back.

[LABS4ME]

put him on a 50' check cord! He'll begin to listen when you say "here" and are pulling him in.

He's 4 months old and a puppy... I've raised 4 kids and they never listened to me all that well at times when they were distracted... goes with the territory! Repetition and consistancy are your two allies at this stage of the game! Go over to the neighbors and demand that he comply with your command. DO NOT keep standing there yelling "here" as you are setting yourself up for him to listen when he wants. One command = one obey. If he doesn't listen go over and 'retrieve' him and bring him back to your yard. I'd suggest working on boundraries also. My dogs know the command 'get in the yard'. They know they are not to cross that imaginary line... no invisible fence (though they work good)... just good ol' hard work and repitition.

I think you are under the assumption that an e-collar is used to discipline when they don't listen. It is the exact opposite. Correction is not and never is punishment. All the above info given by the others is correct. Train the commands first with check cords and small areas... then progress into an e-collar. I'd recommend getting a book on training with a collar before you buy one and strap it on. Used incorrectly, you will have hurdles way bigger than the average trainer can jump... used correctly and you have one of the best tools ever invented in the dog training world.

Good Luck!

Ken

[6028]

Thank you all. Your input was very helpful. Although i am buying a e collar i will only use it for training purposes only. I havent decided on tri-tronics or dogtra. Was looking at innotek but heard of to many bad review on that particular brand.

[gsptbone]

I own both a DT systems and a Sportdog. Both of mine are multiple dog units. The DT I've had for years and it has been back to the factory for repairs once. It has a vibrate feature as well as a nick and continous stimulation. I've owned the DT for at least 5-6 years and have gotten my moneys worth out of it.

The Sportdog appealed to me because of the lifetime warranty and also that you can add collaras for $100(up to three total) to your original receiver. They use a tone button as oppossed to the vibrate as well as nick and continous. I think I have the 1800 model. I picked the Sportdog up last year and so far it has worked well. Not as nice as a Tritronics, but more affordable with a good warranty. I have dealt with customer service once to order some longer contact prongs, and they sent me out extras and I didn't pay for anything. So far so good.

Hope this helps. All the other advice here is great as well. Don't be in a hurry to use the collar, work on basic commands and trust first. My collars are used rarely, usually if my dogs are ranging a bit far and seem to be ignoring my command. My youngest pup has been trained with the tone option and I rarely need to use the shock feature of it with her.

[Dogzlife000]

Concerning use of e-collars.........what LABS says.

Personally, more than once I've made the mistake of giving a firm HERE command when my pup wasn't under control (checkcord) and I failed to get compliance. I'd wince after giving the command because I knew I had to properly follow up and retrieve pup. Also, once you get to pup and clip on the cord, be sure you do not do anything in anger. Just nonchalantly clip on, get back to the spot of the command, give the HERE command again, and reel him/her in. Give LOTS of praise at that time for the "compliance". Actually, while you have pup on cord, now is a good time repeat this command a couple more times.

What I have done in the past to get a pup back when control is questionable was to use a different command than a firm HERE. Something that is essentially saying that "I'm having more fun here than you are over there". Perhaps calling his/her name in an excited manner while clapping hands and without looking at him/her (pretending like you don't know where he/she is). Bouncing a ball is also very effective. Again, don't look at pup. You want him/her to think that you are having loads of fun without him/her. Lastly, alway be glad to see pup when he/she comes back.....no matter what.

If you would like a good book on training springers, give me a call. I would be glad to help. 612-804-0313

By the way, I like the Dogtra 200NCP collar too. Compact and the vibe is all you should really need. In my opinion, if you need to shock 'em, then you still have work to do.

Pete

[Tinkhamtown]

No No Bad Doggie!

Old fashion…Different point of view.

A mother dog would instantly grab the offender by the back of neck and vigorously shake it, establishing a picking order and control. Note: Mother is very aggressive when she does this but she still loves the pup very much and must get it to mind.

When the dog doesn’t respond to a come command or any other command go to the dog pick it up by the scruff of the neck (skin on back of neck) and skin on top of rump than vigorously shake two to four times each time repeat the command. Don’t do this in anger…this is training and expect a positive result.

If the dog knows the come command and is not responding to the command run to them, put on a choke chain collar and six foot leather lead. Instantly give the dog THREE very sharp corrections by pull snapping the lead and saying the command COME. Example COME, CORRECTION snap the lead. COME, CORRECTION snap the lead. COME, CORRECTION snap the lead, all the time walking in the direction you wanted the dog to go. Don’t do this in anger, it is training but you can sound angry to the dog. This will work, expect positive results, and let the dog know they have to come and that you are the boss.

Uses a repeated sharp trill on a whistle as a come command and always give positive (treat and praise) when the dog comes. Do this when going hunting or during the hunt always followed by treats and praise when the dog is young with treats being phased out and just praise and a good pat when the dog is older. If you keep the whistle use to just yourself and the dog has nothing but very positive expectations when they respond you will be able to whistle call them in when nothing else will work.

Or just go buy an electric collar and shock them if they don’t come. BUT what will you do if some day the collar isn’t on?

Tink

[slotlimit]

Just my opinion but I would sugest one with the beeper attachment. I have the Dogtra 2000 t&B and a GSP. With my first GSP I lost here for over 4 hours. We were walking the cattails and all of the sudden I couldn't hear her anymore. I was calling and calling with no response. We walked all over the area we were at because she never got more then 30 yrds away. Still nothing. We drove around the Wildlife area calling some more. I was starting to get dark and I thought I had lost her. Then we seen a rooster get up and cackle not 20 yards in the cattails from where I lost her. Then sure enough her bell on her collar started to ring again. We figured she was on point for over 4 hours. The next ay I baught an innoteck with the beeper and it lasted for years. I just baught the new collar this year and I like the feature that you don't have to have the beeper on or off like some collars,but you can just hit a button to make it beep at any time. I know after years of hunting no matter the dog (especially if you hunt cattails) I would own one with the beeper option. I mainly pheasant hunt but if you were just about duck hunting I maybe wouldn't worry so much about the beeper.

I also note that every time I put the collar on I do something fun with my dog. When I take out the collar all I have to do now is hold it down low and my dog runs to it and puts his head right through it.

[united jigsticker]

Beep or vibrate works wonders...

I don't encourage multiple identical commands be given in succession for reinforcement.

Saying "here, here, here" only teaches DOG that they are to come after "here, here, here" is commanded rather then "here".

Also, keep volumes at the lowest possible. If you start with "here" and then progress to "H E R E!!!!!" before correction, DOG seems to get the impression that you're not serious until "H E R E!!!!", and when going potty at 4am, NEIGHBOR doesn't like that...

As far as collar smart...DOG catches on fast that something pinching or heavy on the neck means business and the absence means no consequence when MASTER is more then 2 feet away.

Some dogs have excellent word recall.

I have walkie talkies on my house dogs rather then E-collars.

7 miles away I say "kennel", and arrive to waiting DOG in her kennel rather then at the door.

Stack a pile of stuffed animals up, and tell DOG to retrieve the one that looks like SANTA. DOG retrieves a bearded red and white fat looking thingy, heels, drops, and is sent to get PENGUIN. DOG returns with a white and black dealy with yellow wing looking arms. DOG is now too smart, and is commanded to retrieve RIB EYE ROAST, in which is unsuccessful.

I have 4 dogs. I have 2 cats. That's alot.

[united jigsticker]

One more thing...I don't know that I would be vigorously shaking DOG by the scruff in any visible site of animal rights advocates...Just a weird hunch....

[Tinkhamtown]

Very good advice united jigsticker. Thanks Tink

[Springerguy1]

I've owned two Innotek collars and would consider both of them just a notch above junk. I thought the first one was a fluke and ended up buying a two dog unit with beepers - we have a brittany and a springer. I have gone through several collars and one transmitter. The problem with Innotek is that the antennae is built into the collar - and they break all the time. In the cold, during a hunt, when dropped - my brothers take bets each hunting season on how long it will take me to melt down over that stupid collar. I now have two collar units, the other is a sportdog 2-dog unit with removeable beeper.

Be careful with the e-collar's - I messed up my first springer with improper collar use. The two dogs we now own were professionally trained using a collar - and the trainer spent many sessions training me in the proper use and last year training my 14 yr. old son. You can get some really good quality training for around $1,200 -$1,400 - a fair amount of money but I consider it well worth the money.

[slotlimit]

Here are the rules I would follow before I thought about spending a dime on a trainer. When using an e-collar never have it set high enough to make the dog yelp. It should just be used as an attention getter. On my dogta I have never set it above 10 (it goes to 100). The level will depend on the dog. Make sure right after you put the collar on you do something fun i.e hunt, go for a walk, play fetch etc. Third you have to have the time to train. To me if you don't have the time to train you shouldn't have a dog. If you can't take 15minutese a day to give to your hunting partner I sure feel sorry for him/her. Being locked up in the kennel 24/7 until it's time to go hunting is no life for a dog. Unless you are doing the force fetch method of training. Then it probably should be done by someone else. Get a few good training books/DVD's for your specific dog/goal. Let the instincts kick in and you will feel much better in the end because it was you who got the job done.

[united jigsticker]

I have 4 dogs that roam the house while I'm at work.

I would say I invest about $25 a week in stuffed toys for them. I like to name the toys, and then send them to retrieve FROGGY, BOO BEAR, etc.

Everyday, I come home and there is stuffing from one level to the next, but my furniture is safe.

I don't hunt a stitch. But I work with the dogs on retrieves, tricks, and manners.

The e-collar thing again...True true true, the lowest setting of recognition is the best, and the goal is to get to tone or page recognition as soon as possible.

Don't continue to train once you or DOG have gotten frusterated! Play for fun at the end of a session so DOG knows that this is GOOD, though alot of HUNTING dogs are naturally happy just by working.

My Golden will work herself to death if I would let her. And she would stay in the back acre for an hour on a B/R searching for something if I tell her it's there...

On the other hand, I have a black lab that would rather cuddle on the couch with my g/f then go after a ball, but mention to her that I'm going fishing and she's the first in the truck.

I have a German Shep that loves to cuddle with the tabby cat.

And I have a Lhasa Appso that thinks her job is to guard the house above all.

I am looking for a yellow...If anyone knows of any...

[slotlimit]

That's quit the array. You also hit it on the head. Make it fun!

[Springerguy1]

Slotlimit,

I wouldn't be so quick to slam the value of using a professional dog trainers - I have plenty of time to train my dogs and spend a fair amount of time each week working with the dogs but the money we've invested has been well spent. I've hunted with a number of guys, including family, that have their well disciplined dogs go crazy out hunting - because there only training has been in a back yard setting. To each their own but don't assume that someone who has their dogs trained by someone else puts their dogs up in a kennel until hunting season or is disinterested.

[slotlimit]

My bad! But I would bet the house on it that "most" people send their dogs to a trainer because of time and the commitment it takes to train a good dog. Instead of learning how to do it for themselves it's just easier to let someone else do it.

[Springerguy1]

Probably true. I sent mine for training mainly to have better control out hunting. I'd say it's worked well - the brit just went through his third year and is really a super dog to hunt with. The springer just went through her first year of hunting - our other springer died last year so we picked up a replacement so my son would have his own dog. She has a ton of energy and hunts under control for the most part but her nose doesn't keep up with her speed just yet. The e-collars with beepers work well in the yard - both dogs are not trained to come in just by beeping the collar. Oddly enough - out hunting I'll use the beeper as a locator and they seem to understand it isn't a here command. Was in Wilmar today for the kids hockey game........brutal drive home to Buffalo. There is some nice habitat out in your neck of woods.

[slotlimit]

I used to have 2 springers. great dog! Their is some good hunting around but the public get stommped down pretty good. you have to be willing to hit the thick stuff. My Dad is an implement dealer so I do get to hunt some nice land when I'm with him. Which is probably the main reason I switched to pointers. He's getting up there in age and it's just nice to give him time to get over to the bird so he gets a shot.