Bear Hounds in Mn

[bearplott]

Just a few comments guys and by my name you can tell I am a hound hunter. The trespassing issue is very real, but I want you to think about all the other sporting groups for a minute. Deer hunters, grouse hunters, turkey hunters & fisherman all have trespassers in there ranks. If you think they don't your kidding yourself. Even bear bait sitters have been know to trespass on somebodies land way up north when the land owner lives far away. Trust me it does happen. The second thing is concerning the bears sporting chance for survival. Until you try hunting with hounds you would not understand that just because the bear trees it is not necessarily a dead bear. Just because a bear does tree does not mean it will stay treed. They will back down the tree right into the dogs just as you start to get close and then the chase is on again or in some cases you are headed to the vet with most of your dogs. Most of the time the dogs are pulled back and the bear is allowed to leave. Yes some are harvested, but to most dog runners the kill really doesn't mean much because dead bears will not leave a track to run tomorrow. I'm sure it's the same with bird hunters. They really don't need to kill a bird to have a satisfying hunt. They just like to see the dogs work. Lastly, all meat that we get from our bears we do harvest is utilized. The loins are generally fought over at camp and the rest goes into sausage. It is excellent. There is a group from the Sheldon WI area that has a bear feed for all the local landowners once the season is done.

[almostthere!]

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Most of the time the dogs are pulled back and the bear is allowed to leave. Yes some are harvested, but to most dog runners the kill really doesn't mean much because dead bears will not leave a track to run tomorrow.

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Isn't this borderline animal cruelty? Causing distress on wildlife without the intent to kill... Why bother running the hounds?

[ARNE]

Almostthere have you ever went fishing caught a fish and let it go?

[lichen fox]

I've hunted bears over bait in Minnesota for about 20 years and the only problem I'd see with hounds is having them out in the woods at the same time as hunting over bait is going on...The bear population in MN is expanding and I think something more has to be done to increase the harvest...we don't need any more restrictions on how we harvest game, we need more opportunitys...as long as they have a separate season so I don't have hounds being turned loose on one of my baits I have no problem with it...question is for management and harvest purposes...who goes first...the baiter or the hounds...maybe they could split the seasons into a spring hunt and fall hunt...

[almostthere!]

Arne,

Not intentionally. I eat my intended catches.

[houndsman]

You guys know to that sometimes a hound can only maybe chase a bear not very long to due the weather conditons hounds cant smell every thing humitidy plays a big factor and being able to run a track bears can be jumped and up and runing and a hound can lose a track when its like that and no harm is done for to the bear hunting with hounds is a very good way to hunt nothing bad or non ethical about it its just one persons opion on wheather he likes to hunt as you non hound hunters say you are hunters then why don't you stand with you other hunters weather you like it or not and help get a new sport in this state and open up to the hound world why don't some of you non hound hunters try this sport once im shure you would go again bet you would even like listening to a hound on a hot track or maybe not who knows just don't knock something unless you have tried it and don't listen to here say about every one elses opions on a sport that they probably have never even tried or further more know any one who has a hound.

[bearplott]

So you've never caught an undersized fish, that you didn't want to keep due to it's size, and threw it back?

[houndsman]

you probably won't get to many response on that one bearplott they have to think what about when kill hooked swallowed a hook thats the same concept but some one will say well thats just a fish

[nolte]

I first want to say that I support hunters or fisherman in any sort of legal activity they choose to partake in. If you want to enjoy any of our outdoor resources, get out there and have a ball.

I live to hunt and fish. From hounds on bear in WI, to labs on waterfowl and pheasants in the dakotas, deer in the rifle and bow stands, turkeys in the damp spring mornings, eyes on the river, to lakers on the big lake. They've all got their own spice and I enjoy all of them, but my favorite has always been hunting with dogs (particularly hounds).

Every step or action we do on this planet has consequence to another. If we were ultimately concerned about not causing distress to wildlife, we'd never enter the woods or waters, build a house or cabin on vacant land, or drive our cars down the road. Now granted this is an extreme example but you get my drift. Food for though, a study was done on the impact of pursued animals(both lions and bear) and mortality rates in AZ, and CO I believe. Their findings were that animal research (ie tranq darting and handling the animals), had a higher mortality rate than did the pursuit of hounds. Both were very, very low though. These animals are incredibley tough. I don't know what the psycological effects might be becaue I'm not in contact with any animal psycologists.

The majority of hound hunters are in it for the experience, the chance to be outdoors, the dog work, and the occaisonal chance to harvest a real trophy caliber animal. One thing that is usually overlooked with houndhunters is their ability to judge the size of animals. Both in a tree or on foot. Young animals or sows are not usually not targeted. Also most good hound hunters are probably more efficient at harvesting animals, so if the population is higher than it should be, they have the ability to bring it down to desired levels. Bait hunters have to rely on an animal showing up during daylight hours, which the vast majority of large bear do not do, especially later in the season. Spot and Stalk hunting has a very, very, very low success rate in rate in our type of terrain. If you feel you want to harvest a bear that way, I'll wish you good luck and expect to put in many, many fruitless hours, days, or even years.

I don't want to give the impression that hunting bear with hounds is easy. I've always heard how "Well, all you do is chase them up a tree and then shoot them". There is a whole bunch more that happens from A to B than that. That would be the same as me saying I bought my kid a pair of skates and he's just about ready to lace em up with the gophs, or just walk out into a field, sit in a lawn chair and shoot a 150 class 10 point. Not the case at all.

I hear a lot about the trespass issues, and there will probably be some cases of it happening. The vast majority of dog hunters will make every effort to stay off of land they do not have permission on and to keep their hunt on public land. WE don't like getting yelled at any more than landowners like having to confront people. After figuring out problem areas, hound hunters will avoid them.

The easiest way to not interfere with other hunters would be to not have the start of seasons at the same time. In WI baitsitter go first one year, and dog hunters the next. That way if you want first crack you can wait till the next year. A spring season would be a absolute great idea because it would be during a time where no other hunters are in the woods.

[sakazulu]

I think that the only thing the MNDNR should consider, FOR RIGHT NOW, is adding a spring bear hunt and see how that affects the over population. Baby Steps! THEN, in the mean time, we could all go over to "Sconi" and try a bear hunt with the hounds. I can see how much effort and pleasure, let alone expense, a bear hunter would get out of hunting over trained dogs. After all, it's a tradition in WI.! We have ours and they have theirs. I would also love to open water fish with two poles, ice fish with three rigs and bait deer but I don't think that's gonna happen in Minnesota in our lifetime either.

[Cooter]

I'd like to clear up a couple bear/hound hunting misconceptions: first the misconception of the bear having 'no chance but to run until exhaustion and then go up a tree' talk. Many bears chose not to run cuz 6 dogs(max number allowed in WI on a chase) aren't gonna do much damage to a mature bear. And most large bears do not tree and you think getting close enough to one of those smart old bears in tag alder swamp where you can't see 10' is easy - guess again. Also, many bears tree long before they are tired. Lots just sit in the tree looking at you like they could care less. And a small to mid sized bear has more endurance than any deer and lots of hounds. Where we practice with hounds there are numerous bears we've named cuz we've treed them many times over several years - that shoots the exhaustion/long term harm accusations. You have to realize as well these bears that have been treed multiple times surely know hitting one of those baits is probably gonna result in getting 'chased' and put up a tree. So you would think if it was such a cruel, stressful ordeal they'd learn in a hurry, eh? Again, I realize not all sportsmen are gonna agree on everything and that's fine, but I'm sick of some of the comments on this topic from persons who haven't a clue about what hunting bears with hounds entails. Later.

[houndsman]

Well said there cooter you took the words out of my mouth

[Nova]

Cooter and some of you other hound guys, I have to agree. I haven't done it and you make some valid points. There are things I didn't consider. thanks for opening my eyes a little. I'm not saying a totally agree with it yet, but you make some valid points and have made me rethink my position.

[Neiko]

Sakazulu, I agree with you. A spring bear hunt would be the ultimate answer if they want to bring down the population. I love hunting and the only thing to hunt in the spring is turkey. If you want to hunt bears with hounds go over to Sconi and support there local houndsmen.

[bearplott]

I think a spring season would be great. People could apply for either a spring or a fall permit and that would drop the amount of baits in the woods in the fall and I would think it would give everybody a better experience with a lower chance for conflict between hunters. It will be extremly hard to get though after what Ontario did with their spring season.

[nolte]

Cooter

You are so right on running ability of those small to midsized bear. They can make a pack of bear hounds look silly pretty fast. We had one last year that we called "Carl Lewis", we ran him about 5 different times all day and could never tree him. I'm talking from about 6 AM till 1 PM, when it got too hot. We finally treed him late in the season on a cool late august day and that was at 5 PM, from running him all day long since about 7 AM. We've also had little bear go up the first tree when they hear dogs. You just never know.

One thing you brought up I thought I'd add on a little bit. Those situations where a large bear will not tree, (although few and far between mind you) are the ultimate hunt for houndsmen. They are one of the few "dangerous game" type hunts in the lower 48. The adrenaline and sheer rush are unbelievable. They are definately not for the faint of heart.

We had a friend of ours last year that drew a tag, but liked to bait sit. Well he wasn't having much luck with his baits before season, so he asked if he'd be able to tag along. We only had one other tag at the time so he came with. We treed a little guy the first day and he was all excited, but we told him to hold off that we'd find him a better one. Well the next day we got on one that wouldn't tree. When I told him we'd have to try and slip in there and get a shot at him on the ground, his eyes got real big and he gave me this look like "Really". Well the other guy in our group that had a tag decided to go in there with him, so they would have two guns. We told him on the way in that the two rules are 1. Dog safety (Do not take any questionable shot where a dog might jump in the way PERIOD 2. Clean shot on the bear. If it's not good wait. Well he got in there and my buddy coached him a bit on when to shoot, and he managed to harvest a super nice 300+ lb bear. He told us after that it was one of the best hunts he'd ever been on, and couldn't see himself baitsitting any more for a bear.

I think bear are pretty amazing creatures. With dogs I get to see about 15 times more a year than if I didn't hunt. Some of my best hunts are where the dogs get to do what they were born and bred to do, and we walk away with a just a picture. I sure hope I never evolve past loving that.

[CANOPY SAM]

I'm glad to see this debate calm down a bit, and the quotes that include name calling being deleted. That's not only unnecessary, but it's extremely immature. Let's keep it clean here.

I'm kind of confused though. On a couple of posts I'm reading where hound hunters have only 5% success, yet on another post I'm reading where they are very successful and efficient, and can easily "bring bear population levels down to desired levels". Baiters probably average about 40% success rates throughout the season, and currently are adequately maintaining a comfortable population of bear in Minnesota. At least that's roughly the number of bears registered per tag issued. I don't know what the numbers are for hound hunters. So is hunting with hounds really successful or not? I imagine it depends on the quality of the dogs and their trainer. Another question is based on the statement that, "most of the time young animals and sows aren't targeted." Does that mean that sometimes they are? Dogs don't know the difference so I imagine that a sow and her young cubs might inadvertently be seperated by many miles before the dogs are "pulled off". This would almost certainly result in young cubs being orphaned and dieing alone.

Please forgive me Houndsman, but I struggle to follow your dialog. Without any appropriate capitolization, or punctuation in your posts it's hard to understand what your trying to convey. Please take a little more time with your dialog - your thoughts would be more easy to understand.

Am I to understand that a group of dogs pushed a bear around for 10 hours in one day? 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.? That bear must have done a lot of marathon training! You must have covered many miles of forest to finally catch up to it. I'm sorry, but I just can't see the fairness in this. That bear must have been virtually near death with exhaustion. And then to think that someone would just "pull the dogs off" and walk away! It would almost be more humane to dispatch the animal, and end it's suffering right there. I know that if I was made to run for 10 hours I'd want to die! That's why dogs are shot when seen running deer.

About 20 years ago I hunted once with bloodhounds for racoons, at night, in extreme northern rural Minnesota. We did not have any success, although the dogs had a great time running around howling like rabid wolves. I still wonder what might have defined our success that night! I really didn't find it entertaining at all. The dogs were so loud that some neighboring farmers called the local authorities, and it was written up in the newspaper the following week.

Please don't keep saying how we non-hound hunters are completely uneducated on the ways of hound hunting. I've never experienced a heart attack either, but I can explain in very intricate detail exactly how they occur. The fact is I've seen hounds work, I know how the animals they are pursuing respond, and I know that virtually every animal within a few miles of where you are running dogs knows exactly where you are - and they run away as well!

Hunting hounds are not at all like bird dogs, and running game with hunting hounds is nothing like hunting birds with bird dogs. Contrary to the earlier post that none of us could ever enter the woods without disturbing or distressing wildlife, I'm not sure you could be more wrong. Still or stalk hunting is very stealthy and peaceful. I enjoy the quiet of the forest, and prefer to see it remain that way. I've quietly walked up on many big game animals without their knowledge that I was even there. Hunting hounds are an extremely boisturous (sp?), and exhuberant mob. I love dogs, and hounds are a cool breed. I just don't agree with their use as animal chasers, and I don't enjoy their general tone in the normally quiet northern forests.

I'd prefer, that if you folks would like to continue to chase game with your dogs than please pursue your fascination in states that already allow it. I personnally am prepared to defend against this practice in the state of Minnesota with great passion and energy. I have yet to see a single valid argument why dogs should be allowed to hunt bear in Minnesota.

As for a spring bear hunt, I agree that it will be next to impossible to start this in MN when taking into account what changes have occured in parts of Canada. Great conversation though!

[bearplott]

First of all hound hunting can be a very effective method in controlling animal populations. I would not have any idea as to what actual figures would be, but a solid pack of hounds I would guess will tree or bay up 75-80% of the bears they are put on. Sometimes they don't get the animal jumped, sometimes they get out run and sometimes they will plain loose the track. With that being said I believe the average success rate in Wisconsin is around 50%. That number includes bait sitters and hound hunters. I believe if the dog runners were too harvest every animal that they had an opportunity too that number would be higher. Let it be known that everyone does not have a solid pack and that their percentages would be quite a bit lower. 10 years ago the group I hunt with was lucky to tree 5 bear in three solid months of running. Now we tree around 35-40 per year. That includes training and harvest seasons. We have not left a tag open in probably 5 years taking 4-5 bears per year on average. The last few years that we did leave tags open it is only because we didn't have sizable bears hitting the baits. Now when you say after a bear runs 10 hours it must be near death from exhaustion, wouldn't you think Wisconsin's bear population would be crashing. That is simply not the case. These bears are no worse off than before the chase began. Trust me, there are enough of them that will go on a marathon that if they are dying you would notice it. Here is one last thing to consider. Dog runners do not need to bait. A good dog will rig or bark when you drive over a track with a truck. They can be put down and chases can start this way. What are you going to do when the politicians in Washington ban baiting? I am not trying to threaten you with that statement, because it will reduce the number of chases we get so we are for baiting as well. Just a question.

[CANOPY SAM]

When Elliot Ness (the cop who got Al Capone) was asked, "Mr. Ness. What will you do if they end prohibition?" Ness answered, "I guess I'll have a drink."

When and if the politicians ban baiting, I will stop baiting. This is only the second year I've done it myself, and if I had my druthers I wouldn't be doing it at all. I'd much prefer to go into the woods and hunt a bear on it's own terms. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to do this anymore.

I'm sorry to ask this, but it just strikes me as kind of funny. If you have a bait pile set up to get a bear where you want it so you can begin the chase with dogs - #1 Why not just harvest the bear right there on the bait pile like we do here in MN? And #2(this is the funny part) How the heck do you keep the dogs out of the bait? My lab would have a hay day in a bait pile!!! I would no doubt have the stinkiest dog on the block, but the happiest! Har Har Har!!!

[bearplott]

In Wisconsin all bear baits must be enclosed inside something degradable. We use hollow logs with wood covers and then we put large rocks on top to keep the coon out. Of course we sand all our baits to minimize the chance that we get after sows with cubs.

[CANOPY SAM]

So the bear doesn't actually (can't) get into the bait? What does "sand the bait" mean? And how does it keep sows and cubs off the bait?

[Neiko]

I think the sand is put there to see the tracks to tell if it has cubs or is a big one.

[ARNE]

What I was trying to say was we don’t shoot every bear we tree or chase, there is a training season. The group I hunt in will only shoot around 5% of the bears we tree or bay up. But have had a 100% success rate on filling tags for many years.

[nolte]

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I'm kind of confused though. On a couple of posts I'm reading where hound hunters have only 5% success, yet on another post I'm reading where they are very successful and efficient, and can easily "bring bear population levels down to desired levels". Baiters probably average about 40% success rates throughout the season, and currently are adequately maintaining a comfortable population of bear in Minnesota.

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I'd have to agree with these guys that in a month long season, hound hunters with a well trained pack of dogs could fill their tags pretty easily. Say around 85%. I think the last 5 years or so we've not filled about 4 tags, and that was because either someone had limited time to hunt, or they were waiting out for a bruiser boar. In WI you need to have a kill tag in possession to run dogs in the kill season, so most groups will save one so they can still train dogs and look for that big bear. Sometimes the time runs out and you never find it though. Another thing to keep in mind is that (well in WI anyway), the DNR said that the average bear shot is around 130 lbs or so. I've kept track in the last 5 years and our average size bear harvested is right around 240lbs.

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Another question is based on the statement that, "most of the time young animals and sows aren't targeted." Does that mean that sometimes they are? Dogs don't know the difference so I imagine that a sow and her young cubs might inadvertently be seperated by many miles before the dogs are "pulled off". This would almost certainly result in young cubs being orphaned and dieing alone.

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We sand all the baits we run off of, so before we try a track we check to see if there are any cub tracks present. If there are, that track is skipped. We have had times where the sow will not let her cubs into the bait so you can't tell. On those tracks that you can't tell, the sow will tree with her cubs almost every time. Now I'm sure someone will ask (well how can you tell it's sow and if it has/doesn't have cubs). You can usually tell nursing sows easily. Sows that don't show signs of that can be distinguished, by their head, body size (they are usually squattier and pudgy), and by looking underneath them from below . You can sometimes even tell a bit by their track. The toes on a sow are a little more round, while a boar is more oval.

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Am I to understand that a group of dogs pushed a bear around for 10 hours in one day? 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.? That bear must have done a lot of marathon training! You must have covered many miles of forest to finally catch up to it. I'm sorry, but I just can't see the fairness in this. That bear must have been virtually near death with exhaustion. And then to think that someone would just "pull the dogs off" and walk away! It would almost be more humane to dispatch the animal, and end it's suffering right there. I know that if I was made to run for 10 hours I'd want to die!

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Sam I agree with you that If I ran for 10 hours I'd be totally spent. Heck I'd be done in about an hour if that. This particular bear could just run, run, run and run some more. The only thing that got exhausted was our dogs. When we finally treed him it was more like he just got bored than tired. Bear have a keen way of playing little trick to lose the dogs. They swim creeks/rivers, come out on a trail make a loop and go back on their same track, climb up a tree and come down(this is called tapping a tree), all sorts of shenanigans. All of this stuff makes it tougher for the dogs to follow. Each time the dogs make a loss and have to figure it out, the bear rests and puts more space between himself and the dogs. We had one large boar that we ran a few years back that would float down the river when chased by dogs. When we would get him going he'd bail in the water and lose them. We finally got him after we learned to send the guy with the tag right to the river, well we got lucky and got him before he made it to the water.

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I know that virtually every animal within a few miles of where you are running dogs knows exactly where you are - and they run away as well!

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Animals around the area do not run away when they hear dogs. I've seen it so many times where we will chase a bear and the deer will simply stay bedded or move off a ways and come back. In the winter we see this all the time. You will have a coyote chase going and the dogs will run close to a group of bedded deer and they won't even flinch. The old addage that the hounds will chase every critter out of the woods is a fallacy. We have one bowhunter by us that begs us to try tracks near this one swamp that he hunts. He has said that numerous times he has heard the dogs running and the deer will walk out of the swamp towards where he sits. After the dogs leave the deer filter back in to bed down. Now I'm sure this wouldn't be the case if the dogs were not trained and broke off of deer, but hound guys spend a lot of time training dogs to NOT run deer. Much more than the average pet owner. One thing that we did was plant a food plott directly around where we kennel the dogs. The deer come in and eat, and the hounds don't even pay attention to them anymore.

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Hunting hounds are not at all like bird dogs, and running game with hunting hounds is nothing like hunting birds with bird dogs.

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The only real fundamental difference in the two is that bird dogs usually don't bark on track, and that they are in closer proximity to the hunter. Although, I've had the pleasure of hunting with a few short-hairs that were never very close to the hunters . The basic premise is the same, they use their nose to track down the desired game for the hunter. In both cases (hounds and bird dogs) it takes a lot of time and effort to train the dogs.

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Contrary to the earlier post that none of us could ever enter the woods without disturbing or distressing wildlife, I'm not sure you could be more wrong. Still or stalk hunting is very stealthy and peaceful. I enjoy the quiet of the forest, and prefer to see it remain that way. I've quietly walked up on many big game animals without their knowledge that I was even there.

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Sam I agree with you that I like to get away from everything and enjoy the peace and quiet. I think you are over estimating the amount of "noise" that a pack of dogs will make. You hear bear hunting with hounds, and you envision packs and packs of dogs running all over the country barking their heads off going every direction. This is not the case at all, most packs of dogs will be very small say 3-6 dogs. When they get a bear going they will line out and can be out of hearing very quick. They will make more noise when they are treed, because they are stopped. You can't hear dogs as far away as you think, say 1 mile tops and that is very, very faintly. I know that I can hear highways, atvs, and snowmobiles much easier than I can hear my dogs.

[CANOPY SAM]

Thank you Nolte. Thank you very much! You took some real time to answer the questions I've been looking for with this issue for a week or so now. Thanks.

Obviously, when this is done right, ie. well trained dogs, good trainers, and good guides, this can be a pleasureable, and rewarding experience. I have to wonder though, how many really know how to do this right?

Just like in our state, with baiters and bears, there are many that aspire to greatness, but there are many more that just about spoil it for everyone else. With hounds, I would imagine that errors and mistakes are magnified significantly by the fact that there are so many dogs and people running amuck (with inexperienced Houndsman). I think maybe that is a large part of our concern as well. We already have to fight with hunting slobs while baiting - as you've probably read on other threads. Throw into the mix a bunch of first time Minnesota Hound Hunters and it'll be chaotic.

None-the-less, I am going to contact our local DNR office and discuss this issue with them. I'm really curious to hear where this topic is at with them, and what their thoughts are on the issue.

Perhaps, if us baiters were allowed to go first. Give us the first three weeks of bear season, then you guys could come in and have your fun. I would imagine the deer hunters are shreaking right about now!

Anyway, we'll see how this thing plays out. You've peaked my interest. I'm investigating pretty much every Bear related HSOforum I can find now.