"Hard" Mouth?

[duckbuster]

To DBL & Blackjack, Your points are well taken!! Obviously you 2 read allot of the posts and topics on this board, as do I. It seems though that so many have to do with someones dog not fetching or not holding or playing with the bird & not bringing it back in a timely manner. The quickest way to resolve this is by going through the force fetch.

I couldn't agree more with both of you when you state that there is more than one way to train. ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!

If an owner can wait until that magical age, what ever it may be, to achieve the amount of success he wants with his dog regarding fetch, hold & retrieving, great. But lets be honest with ourselves here, 99 out 100 dogs are not going to naturally do this in the 1st year or 2 of their existence. When you read so many of these same post about asking for help as to why "my dog won't bring back the bird or he drops it all the time" force fetching is the fastest way to achieve that goal.

To reiterate, I don't mean to say that you absolutely have to do the force fetch but if an owner is questioning why his dog has problems in this area this is one way to correct it quickly.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!

[2 DA GILLS]

My original question was about the "hard" mouth with the birds last weekend. I think I have realized why it is happening. He is playing with the birds. To me it appears a more strict approach is needed and that will probably mean force fetch training. I have read several books with force fetch training programs. I will probably look into other options and make my decision. Either way, something different needs to be done. I knew when I wrote this message I knew what force fetch was all about and what results I could expect for the most part. What I did not know was if force fetch training with help with the "hard" mouth issue. I no longer think it is a hard mouth, but playing with the birds.

As far as the comments about being too late for my dog. Not sure if that was a joke, but several trainer types gave me there opinions that there was no need to have this done prior to the first hunting season. You need to assess your dog and how much pressure he can take. Like most things age is not the indicator, it is different for each dog. Everyone has their own opinion and they are entitled to that. I knew once this head towards a force fetch discussion this could get a little heated. It seems to be a touchy subject.

Have a good weekend.

[Tripleplay]

I also have a pointer that scored Prize II, 102 points in Natural Ability and I was moving towards testing her in Utility. (Her dad is a VC) We went willing into the force fetch training and although she didn't care for me a whole lot through the process because she is pretty stubborn, we were well on our way to completing. Then my daughter got sick and the priorities changed and we never got it finished.

I decided not to go back and start over as by then I had decided not to run her in Utility Testing and although I'd love to own and hunt over a dead on retrieving machine it just wasn't worth the struggles. (this dog used to go and hide under my wifes legs when I'd get the collar out for training! Also, the wife and kids didn't like the dogs reactions in the garage during training sessions which didn't help my case.) I just decided to accept the fact that she may not retreive every bird (her first rooster while training for the track in Natural Ability spurred her really badly) but as long as she finds the birds I could accept that. She retreives all cripples, but may on occasion stand over a dead bird until I arrive.

My next dog will probably have this professionally done but I've also learned that I can survive not having a "finished" dog so the decision is really yours on what your expectations are for the future.

Just as a side bar comment---the breeder of my dog was getting her dad ready for the Invitational and the VC testing over the summer. He was a very young dog but was awesome and had never been force fetched even though owned by a professional handler. In the weeks heading up to the Invitational, I'd never seen the breeder struggling so much this dog as all of a sudden he had decided he didn't have to retreive if he didn't want to. From what I understand they had one heck of a power struggle all while trying to prepare. As it turned out he was down right perfect for the testing but to this day the breeder still tells me it was the biggest testing surprize he ever saw as that dog did nothing right heading up to the test date. You just never now!

Good luck in your decision.

[Dbl]

It was not my intent to suggest this threed was uncivil, just that we have all seen posts like these go down the wrong path on occasion. That is one of the nice things about this site, it is one of the more civil and helpful sites around.

We all hope no matter what method or combination of methods 2 DA GILLS uses, he ends up with a dog he can be proud of that will be a lasting companion and hunting buddy. Keep those questions coming so we can all continue to learn from others experiences.

Good luck and Happy Holidays to all.

[BLACKJACK]

Labs, good response! I've been waiting for your post, because I value your opinion.

It was interesting to hear what you have to say about the British labs because my 2 year old is a descendent of Risky Raider, supposedly a British lab. She does appear calmer at a younger age than other labs I've had, but she still has an incredible drive for dummies and downed birds (the subject of my next post!!). To me, it appears the whole British lab craze is a marketing thing, kind of like the red labs, pointing labs, even chocolate labs 20 years ago, breed something different to make your product different. After 2-3 generations of being crossed with American labs, how much of that British influence will be left?

[BLACKJACK]

duckbuster, when I read your post, you mention several times that force training is much quicker, and you are correct, if a person doesn't have the time for the repetition and even the 10 minutes twice a day for obedience training of a pup, then forcing is the way to go. Not forcing requires repetition and time. You also have to out think your dog. All pups are different too, some will retrieve to hand right away and all the time, and some will be a challenge from the get go. Eventually most puppies will decide that hey, I don't have to bring this dummy back, let’s just play with it. That’s where I, as the human with the superior brain, have to put them in a situation where they have to bring the dummy back to ME, whether it is with a check cord or narrow hallway, etc.

It also depends on your standards. I know a guy that has a dog that won't retrieve at all; it will find the bird and just stand over it!! Yikes! What good is that, especially in heavy cover where you can't even see the dog!! I had an experience with my first dog where it dropped a duck 5 feet away from the blind, but in 10 feet of water!! You think he'd go after that duck again? No. So I learned a valuable lesson and all my future dogs have had the repetition of bringing the bird to hand. Different strokes for different folks.

[duckbuster]

How do you get the dog to bring the bird to hand using repetition? I would be interested to know how or what your technique is using this method.

If you have time please write back.

Thanks

[BLACKJACK]

duckbuster, sounds like a loaded question but I'll try. By repetition I mean the puppy owner needs to put the time into training, have sessions every day with the pup, several times a day if possible. Obedience training first, then reward with the dummy. Insist that the dummy is brought to hand, whether you need to throw in a hallway, use a check cord, run away and then turn quick and take the dummy, lots of praise when they give you the dummy. Then the repetition comes in. Do a little training every day, even if its only 10 minutes, first obedience and then dummies. It gets to be automatic for Pup to bring you the dummy or bird. If the puppy owner doesn't have time and decides every third weekend to work with the pup, Pup and owner are going to be frustrated, pup has forgotten everything from before, lets just play keep away with the dummy. A person that has forced their dog can get away with less training, the dog know that punishment is gong to follow if they don't bring the dummy. Serious trainers will be working with their dogs frequently but the not so serious ones are going to use the forced fetch as an easy way out. I can get the same results by just the repetition of throwing dummies and making them retrieve it to hand.

[LABS4ME]

BlackJack, I agree there are ways to get your dog to retrieve to hand without the use of the "force", I've done it and had success... actually the way I used to do it was the 1st step I still use in forcing a dog. Sitting on a table putting a little pressure on the lips and putting the dummy in their mouth while commanding fetch, then hold, then dorp... increasing the duration as we progress....

As I've posted I don't feel every dog needs to be forced. If you have a dog that retrieves to hand, then that is what we all agree we want. But I have to take issue with this statement of yours :

Quote:

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Serious trainers will be working with their dogs frequently but the not so serious ones are going to use the forced fetch as an easy way out.

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Actually you have this backwards... the serious trainers are usually the ones doing the force. The reason behind this is, the force is a very in depth and long training regimen that you must be committed to do every day. If you take days off you will most certainly lose ground and create confusion for the dog. It is a huge committment to stick with and complete the force of a dog... usually 6-10 weeks long. It is far from an "easy way out". It is not a short cut, or a way to do less training, but rather you are adding a whole 'nother level of training to complete with your dog. I just wanted to clear this up... some guys who are committed like you, that work on their dogs daily will probably enjoy much success in bringing their dogs to a higher level, it is usually the guy who is a haphazard trainer who is looking for the easy way out who doesn't force, or even attempt to, or even consider it because of the time asspect.

Also you state the dog retrieves because he knows punishment will follow if he doesn't. Actually the force works in reverse to this. The dog is taught that their is discomfort when there isn't a dummy in their mouth (before the fetch or retrieve), but it is good when there is a dummy in their mouth, there isn't punishment afterwards. I'm sure most guys will follow up with some form of punishment (scolding, dragging the dog to the bird, "forcing" it in their mouth etc) if they don't complete a retrieve, even if they haven't been forced. Most dogs that have successfully completed the force will never have to be forced or punished for not retrieving as they know the retrieve is good and not retrieving is bad... it is pyscological. I can't even remember ever having to ear pinch a dog to a bird or dummy in training or hunting after they have completed their force. Remember if you are causing injury or damage to the dog during the force, you are not forcing the dog but rather causing animal cruelty. All that is needed is discomfort, not maximum pain, broken skin, broken toes etc. Doing the force correctly is not abusive! I think the stigma attached to "forcing" is the same stigma attached to e-collars 10 years ago, but now almost every hunter has one strapped on their dogs and they are widely accepted and very few guys still think of them as abusive!

Again another long-winded post by me, but I want to try to clear the air on what the force really is about. I will again say this... what ever way you are achieving success, stick with it! What ever level you want your dog to achieve, be happy when you achieve that. No one should feel they have to force a dog. It is a program that has definite results if you decide it is what you want, but may not suit every guy and his dog out there.

Good Luck!

Ken

[SportFishin']

2 Da Gills,

Hey there my 7 mo. Griff is going through the same thing right now he wants to play with birds. What I have experienced is that we went back to some basics on forcing the hold & lots of praise when he completes the task. For my male Griff it only took a couple times with slight pressure on the ear commanding "Fetch" and he quickly learned that if he picked up & held the bird he wouldn't receive any pressure on his ear to pick the bird up again. Now when I command "Fetch" he is starting to focus on the command requested & trying his hardest to retrieve, come to heel,& hold the birds till' commanded "Out". He will stop once & awhile to re-adjust his hold on the bird, but I'm seeing improvement there.

Good luck,

Chris

[BLACKJACK]

LABS, I stand corrected. I had the thought in my mind that the serious trainers would be working their dogs frequently AND using the force training to goto the next level, but it didn't come out that way. You did a good job of explaining to the rookies that force training is also a long process and no quick cure, which is where my concern was.

This whole discussion has gotten me thinking about things I need to work on with my dog training before next hunting season. Over the holidays, while I'm killing time at the in-laws, I'll be reading a book on intro to the shock collar. I've been resisting for years, but on the last trip to SoDak, my two year old 'earned' herself a new shock collar. I've come to the conclusion that it will be easier on her than me getting so frustrated with her and wanting to beat some sense into her.

[marine_man]

Great post Ken...