lawrence x67, or marcum lx3????

[beaverlakeman]

I am finally in the market for a new fishin toy. i am at a draw with these two.. which ever gets the best response is the one i will buy.
So, I want to know what you like and dislike about the 2 of them.. On my own research, i have gathered some info on them..
------------Lawrence x67----------------
1. its digital
2. it makes no noise
3. it has flasher and motion
4. it gets to a 1/2 inch of fish

-------------marcum lx3-----------------
1. only a flasher
2. makes some noise
3. it gets to 2 1/2 inches of fish.

I like them both, and dont know which one i want.. im leaning toward the lawrence, but havent decided yet.

so please let me hear your thoughts.

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Da Beav ----> I.B.O.T #220

Are you a happy clamper??

[Slab Happy]

All that I've heard has been that these two units are so close in performance that it comes down to personal choice and willingness to pay the prices. If it were up to me I'd take the Lowrance just to try the new digital flasher unit. Seems like it would work fine and some people have said that traditional flashers have froze in bitterly cold temps. I've never experienced or seen it but that doesn't mean it couldn't. Let us know what you pick and how it works out.

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www.bearpawguides.com
Crappies are tasty.

[beretta]

i have never tried either of these. all i know is that i love my vexilar. i have the fl 8. its always worked great for me. like i said i have never used these new ones, but im sure they re fine. good luck

[Paul Waldowski]

Slab,

I think you got that backwards. It is the LCD that the screen has a tendency to slow way down and even freeze up when it gets bitterly cold.

Beaver if the unit you are looking to purchase is going to strictly be for ice fishing, I would go with the LX-3. I gurantee you that you will love that thing.

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Paul
[email protected]
Marcum
Otter Outdoors

[beaverlakeman]

i would use is mostly for ice fishing, but i do go to the bwca every year and i think it would be neat to see what the accual depth is in some of the places we go..
I just seen the lawrence for the first time tonight, and i think that thing is great..
but mostly what im looking for is for ice fishing.
Febuary 6th is when im going to buy what ever i decide... definately need it for ice leaders on the 21st..lol..

I apreciate the replys so quickly,, but keep em coming,, would like to have as many as possible, so it will be easier to decide..

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Da Beav ----> I.B.O.T #220

Are you a happy clamper??

[willie]

All i can say is VEXILAR.

Willie ><((((>

[watersNfairways]

Beaver, I have the Lowrance m68, x67 but with GPS. I really like it, but you should be aware that it picks up some interference. I am usually targeting walleye on the run, so I am usually in my one-man Otter. I needed a new unit for the boat, so the Lowrance is great for my. Like Paul said, if you strictly looking for ice-fishing the Marcum is pretty good.

[HuskersRule]

I have the x67c. I've had it out once and liked how it worked. I plan on going out this weekend again. I bought it because I intend to use it on my boat as well. Just like you it took me a while to decide between the Marcum and the Lowrance. I'm glad I choose the x67c.

[Dan Wood]

Like Paul said, the LX-3 is an awfully tough unit to beat as far as features available for the price. You don't have the screen issues to deal with (glare, cold, etc.). The LX-3 is very quiet, I don't know if you have heard one in action, but that shouldn't be an issue.

For open water fishing, it is nice to have a graph to see the bottom contour, but many guys including myself use a flasher on open water as well. The LX-3 makes for a great open water unit. I like to have a graph on the console to see what the bottom looks like and when moving at higher speeds. When you slow down to fish (for marking fish and vertical jigging), the real-time response in the flasher is best. I will have my LX-3 on the front of the boat for that.

Keep in mind that you can buy a cheap graph for about 100 bucks that would do all you need on open water. You can then use your flasher when you want real time response and the graph for seeing the bottom contour and at higher speeds.

[Guest]

The screen in the 67 CANNOT freeze. Its NOT liquid cristal, its more like a tv screen. And TV screens cannot freeze. Go with the 67 if you need both a summer and winter unit. But if you need just something for winter go with the LX-3. Or better yet the FL18. The fish cannot feel the 18 as much as the lx3.

[Dan Wood]

The LX-3 transducer will not spook fish, I wouldn't even be putting that in the equation. I've fished with both Vex. and MarCum, no difference to the fish.

[Guest]

I know this isnt the tired old fl18 vs the lx3 thread. I did not say that it would spook the fish (although I believe it does) I am saying that they feel the lx3 more. The lx3 has more power. more power equals more feeling. And if you dont buy that then let me hit you first with a toothpick and then with a baseball bat. Tell me if you feel them both the same.

[Dan Wood]

Sorry, but that is a poor analogy comparing the hit of a bat with a sound wave.

Information on Sonar from the Eagle HSOforum.

"The word "sonar" is an abbreviation for "SOund, NAvigation, and Ranging". It was developed as a means of tracking enemy submarines during World War II. A sonar consists of a transmitter, transducer, receiver, and display.

In the simplest terms, an electrical impulse from a transmitter is converted into a sound wave by the transducer and sent into the water. When this wave strikes an object, it rebounds. This echo strikes the transducer, which converts it back into an electric signal, which is amplified by the receiver and sent to the display. Since the speed of sound in water is constant (approximately 4800 feet per second), the time lapse between the transmitted signal and the received echo can be measured and the distance to the object determined. This process repeats itself many times per second.

The frequency used by Eagle in our sonar is 200 kHz. Although this frequency is in the sound spectrum, it's inaudible to both humans and fish. (You don’t have to worry about the sonar unit spooking the fish - they can’t hear it.)

As mentioned earlier, the sonar unit sends and receives signals, then “prints” the echo on the display. Since this happens many times per second, a continuous line is drawn across the display, showing the bottom signal. In addition, echoes returned from any object in the water between the surface and bottom are also displayed. By knowing the speed of sound through water (4800 feet per second) and the time it takes for the echo to be received, the unit can show the depth of the water and any fish in the water."

The MarCum LX-3 also transmits at 200 kHz frequency

[muchowja]

No the fish maybe can't hear it, but they can feel it. That's what their lateral line is for. I have read articles where pro fisherman will turn off their sonar on spooky fish. Why? They believe it spooks them even more. With all of the hours they have on the lake, I would believe they probably have seen it firsthand more than once. A sonar company is going to tell you that their unit doesn't spook fish or they will sell fewer products. I don't think it spooks all fish, just the smart ones(i.e. bigger ones). I guess that's why they're bigger

[Dan Wood]

Both the inner ear and the lateral line are only able to detect the low frequency range. The inner ear can detect 1-3 KHz, the lateral line <100 KHz. The transducer on the LX-3 is running well above that range at 200 KHz. I believe they can't detect sonar from everything I've read and seen.

HOW FISH HEAR & FEEL YOU

Fish has two major ways of detecting SOUND and VIBRATIONS. These are the INNER EAR and the LATERAL LINE. Not all fish have developed a full growth of each of these systems, but most do and the others pretty close. Once you understand the workings of these two systems, you will better understand how to react towards the response patterns of your fish.

THE INNER EAR:

Fish do not have ear openings on the outside of their bodies, but they do have ears. In fact, their ears pick up sound so well, fish can hear a worm wiggling at the bottom of a lake.

Water is an even better conductor of sound than is air and fish do not need external openings to allow the sound to reach the ear - it just passes right through the head. The bones of a fish are more dense than water and therefore can be disturbed by sound waves. The inner ear is encased in the skull; therefore the sound waves hitting the skull bones vibrate to the inner ear. Some fish (Carp, Goldfish, Herring, Anchovies, Squirrelfish and Others) have their Swim Bladder connected to the inner ear by the Weberian Ossicles. This in turn makes the Swim Bladder like a hearing aid in these fish.

Diagram of Inner Ear:

This diagram shows the workings of the inner ear where the swim bladder is attached to the Weberian Ossicles. Whether the sound waves are transmitted through the Swim Bladder or through the skull bones themselves, the end result is the same. The sound waves end at the Inner Ear which contains the Three Semicircular Canals. Along this path in the skull there are Ear Stones(tiny stones in a fish's nerve hairs) that tell the fish there is a sound they need to be made aware of. We humans have almost the same setup in that we have tiny grains of calcium carbonate in our inner ears. The chambers of the Inner Ear is where the frequency is gauged and this gives the fish a lot of information. Experience has shown that fish know that different vibrations mean different things. They know the difference between the vibrations of one of the other fish in their school and the vibration of a predator. This also means they can tell a vibration they do not know. This is what scares them away.

Besides hearing, the other reason for having the inner ear is just as in humans, equilibrium.

The frequency range of the inner ear system is pretty high (1-3 KHz).

So now you know a little on how the inner ear works and that fish can hear you by vibration. What does this tell us? Because fish hear so well, even a little sound can spook them and keep them from biting your bait. That's why you need to be quiet when you fish. Taking is fine. Sounds that are transmitted directly to the water, such as banging your feet on the bottom of the boat, can scare the fish away.

THE LATERAL LINE:

Fish have a unique sense of touch. The LATERAL LINE, a row of tiny holes that runs along each side of the body. Sensitive hairs inside each hole detect the location and direction of movement as in the diagram below:

Vision, hearing and equilibrium are all senses that are familiar to us because of our own experience with them. The lateral line system, however, is only found in fishes and the aquatic stages of amphibians. Perhaps the most descriptive term for this system is the German word Ferntastinn, which means “distant touch.” The lateral line system responds to any type of water movement, including disturbances, currents and even the movements of other fishes.

The sensory receptors of the lateral line are called neuromast organs, which are similar to our inner ears. It consists of a number of sensory hair cells enclosed in a cupula similar to the cells that give us our equilibrium. In fishes these receptors are come in two types, 1) epidermal organs, which are in the skin, and 2) canal organs, which are in a system of canals beneath the skin.

The lateral line is critical to the fish’s survival because in most cases a Fish’s visual field is much smaller than the visual field of terrestrial animals. For example, in muddy water the fish uses it’s lateral line system to detect movements in the water to find its prey or to avoid predators such as a largemouth bass. That’s why bass hit spinner baits in muddy water - they feel the vibration of the blades. Studies have shown blind fishes can still strike baits and find their way around using their lateral line. The lateral line also appears to play an important part in the schooling behavior of some fishes.

It’s how they are able to school and move in such a coordinated manner when threatened.

A final note is on how fishes differentiate the “noises” they receive while using their lateral line. A fish such as a trout in a North Georgia stream are attuned to the normal “noise” of the current and the other fishes in the pool.

When food crashes to the surface or when someone like JOE FISHERMAN comes tromping up stream the fish knows something different is occurring in the environment around it. That’s when it takes action to feed or to protect itself. It’s almost like how people filter out conversations at a large party; they focus on what they’re interested in. For the trout it’s food and survival.

The lateral-line system, which detects low-frequency (<100 Hz) particle motion in the water contacting the flanks of the fish, and the inner ear, located within the head of the fish, sensitive to frequencies of up to 1-3 kHz. The lateral line organ is almost certainly involved in acoustic repulsion when the sound source is at close quarters (within a few body lengths of the fish) but the inner ear is thought to be the main sensory organ involved.

[This message has been edited by Dan Wood (edited 01-28-2004).]

[leechlake]

I'd try to find an old Heathkit and put it together in your workshop, either that or I've got a Lowrance Green box still in the closet. (I may break it out for old times sake this Spring). Beaverlakeman, I'd get the flasher if your using it mostly for ice fishing, it's also nice to have the real time aspects of a flasher for Summer time. As said, you'll love either unit, especially, like you said for actually seeing the depths in the BWCA. Your number one issue with any of these is How deep is it? Wheres the structure? Is there a fish down there staring at my bait that I may want to intice into biting? Marcum, Vexilar, Lowrance, Heathkit, Humminbird the list goes on and on (okay, maybe not Heathkit). Speaking of that, when are we going to discuss/debate Humminbird? I have a buddy who has one that inisted on installing it himself and when we're fishing LOW in 10 feet I love when it flashes 625' intermitently, I never fail to point that out. What beer is best, by the way?

[muchowja]

You are correct. However, just because you cannot hear it doesn't mean that you cannot feel it. Take for example a stereo speaker that emits low frequencies below the range of human hearing. You cannot hear it but you can feel it. If you put more power to the speaker you can feel it even more. Thus I believe the same is true from a transducer on a sonar unit.

[Dan Wood]

muchowja,
Just to re-state from the last post...

The inner ear of a fish can hear from 1-3 KHz, so they definitely can't hear the sound waves at 200 KHz. The lateral line will only pick up low frequency as well <100 KHz. In theory, they can't hear or feel above 100 KHz. Unless your transducer is operating at less than 100 KHz, spooking fish shouldn't be an issue. The MarCum LX-3 transmits at 200 KHz, well above the detectable frequency of fish.

[Dan Wood]

leechlake,
That is interesting, I need to check that out. Radio signals are at higher frequencies.

FM radio operates at 88.1 - 107.9 MHz
AM radio operates at 540 - 1600 KHz

[Surface Tension]

Will someone tell the fish that a transducers ping bothers them. Or maybe I should have said tell the Pike and Lake Trout that tried to eat my buddies transducers. If you think 1500 watts bothers fish then its a miracle anyone could catch a fish while using 3000 watt sounders.
If this is a selling point for Vex or Lowrance its one heck of a desperate one.

[dec]

if your worried about spooking fish with noise, the least of your worries is the sound from your flasher. any movement on the ice, a cough,talking, opening a beer, running your auger, your truck, the wind, the ice cracking, etc all can be heard by fish much better than your sonar unit. the little click from your sonar unit is very small in comparision to any of the above noises.
in answering the question about why you can hear the transmitt even though it is at 200khz, the little click you hear is actually the rep-rate of the trasmitt period. not to get too technical, but a fourier transform of this rep-rate would reveal a small low frequency componet along with the much larger amplitude 200khz componet. sorry but i hope this clears up the cliking questions. oh ya, there's also a hi frequency componet which must fall into the radio band

[This message has been edited by dec (edited 01-28-2004).]

[This message has been edited by dec (edited 01-28-2004).]

[Dan Wood]

dec,
Thanks for the explanation on the rep-rate factor. It didn't quite add up until you posted, that makes sense. So there is at least some low frequency sound waves mixed in with the 200 KHz waves. That would account for the noise you hear. Sounds like you know a lot about this. I'd be interested in hearing more about this via email if you have more on this - I know we are getting way off topic here.

I think many can attest to the fact that the flasher doesn't spook fish (you can observe fish on your camera - flip your transducer on/off, etc. when they are under the cone and you won't see any response from the fish at all based on my experience).

[email protected]

[Dog-Eye]

I had a Clearwater LCF 40 for awhile. I always had problems with the readout on the screen when it got real cold, as also with a portable Eagle Ultra I had. I even sent the LCF in to Clearwater but they said it was fine. They told me any LC (liquid crystal) will slow in very cold temps. That is what would make me aprehensive about the Lowrance. The seperation on the LCF was great, but sitting next to or near another electronic sonar gave it interference making it hard to use. I have also used Vexilars, but being red green sprectum color blind my Marcum is the perfect unit for my situation. The red-orange-yellow display is much brighter for me to read, plus the power of the unit makes it more sensitive when fishing deeper water (100' plus). Mine would never be for sale.
Remember- If the women don't find you handsome=They should at least find you handy.

Dog-Eye

[muchowja]

If it is beyond the range of both humans and fish why can you hear the transducer when the machine is on? Not trying to be beligerent but I am curious.

[Northlander]

I just didnt like the small screen on the Lowrance. I know a guy with 1 and he loves it but has never had a Vex. or Marcum either.

[Dan Wood]

muchowja,
Good question. A human can only hear up to 20 KHz, so you shouldn't be able to hear the actual sonar at all (which transmits at 200 KHz). I know you do hear something though on all of the flasher units when you have the transducer out of water. I don't know the details behind all of this, but here is my best guess...

You aren't hearing the actual 200 KHz sonar, you are hearing lower frequency vibration and/or broken sound waves that have been deflected off objects. It would still appear to be instantaneous as it is cycling at 200,000 waves/second.

That's my guess, but again, I don't know. Good question though, now you have me thinking...

[This message has been edited by Dan Wood (edited 01-28-2004).]