Ethenol in boat motors

[andy j]

I have been using 10% ethenol blends 87 octane in my boat motor (2 stroke)for the last few years and I have never had a problem, I was told that I shouldn't use ethenol blends. What do you all think?

[Jeremy airjer W]

I Think We might have some confusion here. All regular and mid grade gas in minnnesota is "oxygenated" meaning it contains 10% ethanol. Premium can be either way and most places are "oxygenated". Select gas stations throughout the state also provide "non-oxygenated" premium.

The other Gasoline is "E-85" which is 85% ethenol. This cannot and should not be used in anything except vehicles designated as "flex fuel", "alternative fuel", or "E-85 compliant". Using this fuel in anything other than the above can cause serious problems, the least being the vehicle, lawn mower, ice auger, weed wacker, snowblower won't start. This fuel is more common in the metro and is slowly expanding in the state.

Were you thinking of E-85, gunflint?

Valv, you have mail!

[Knotwood]

All gas sold in Minneota has a minimum of ten percent alcohol, unless the pump says non-oxygenated (no alcohol) fuel. There is no label required for the alcohol content, but it can be more than 10%. There is an attempt to legally require boosting those levels to a minimum of 20%. A lot of fixed jet carbureted engines will burn lean when alcohol is present, fuel injected engines react electronically to compensate. Jets need to be enlarged to allow for the amount of gasoline to keep from getting displaced by alcohol. Oxygen is introduced by the actual combustion process, so it does a "double whammy", making engines run even leaner. It does burn clean, however. Most fuels available today (and for the past ten years or so) are faster in deteriorating, shelf life is often less than a month. Best to purchase the freshest gas, a high volume dealer is preferred. There also is a problem when alcohol, and water (due to condensation or other contamination) adhere, especially in two stroke engines, because oil and water do not mix well. This could lead to piston wash, or bearing failure- although unlikely, is possible. Most maufacturers have improved tolerances and material quality to handle the stresses due to these running conditions. Older motors, have to be careful. Good oils at the proper ratios will help. Many octane boosters are just alcohol. MTBE was another commonly used substance designed to promote cleaner air, (in place of ethanol) it is a superior chemical, but the EPA outlawed its use, but it was more stable and a lot better for engine life.

[JollyT]

Yes, MBTE was a great fuel additive, but was found to cause widespread groundwater contamination.

On another note. I never buy Heet anymore. When you've got a couple of gallons of alcohol in your tank what is a little bottle of additional alcohol going to do?

As far as making alcohol. Make the grain into mash, let it ferment like you're making beer, wine, etc. Then, cook it like you're making whiskey, vodka or whatever. Just standard distilling. Pour it into the gas, instead of your belly.

[Slyster]

I guess I might be dumping my boat tank into my car tank soon.

Here's a related question... would pouring 50:1 gas/oil mix into a newer (96) car matter in any way to the cars engine?

[ChuckN]

Sly,

A pre-mix 50:1 gas/oil mix is for a 2 cycle engine.

A automobile is a 4 cycle engine.

I would never, ever put pre-mix 2 cycle oil into any 4 cycle engine. It's a different concept of engine physics basically. Simply the oil in the fuel could mess with a sensitive components in a an automobile, like sensors, etc...

[Slyster]

Tx.. yeah I figured that.. but I was thinking in small amounts.. like a gallon in my 20 gallon tank... could that still be a problem?

[jt24]

As far as the Bio-diesel part Kornfish is partly right. There is a company called FUMPA that makes bio-diesel but it is located in Redwood Falls. I just started there this month and the demand for this stuff is way above and beyond what we can produce. Right now we are turning soyoil into bio-diesel but in a 2 weeks we will be using animal fat. It is a very efficient process. About 95%. Which means for every gallon we start with we get .95 in return product. From what I understand FUMPA will be the first company in the US to turn animal fat into bio-diesel. I was trained by a guy from Germany and over there they can run vehicles off straight bio-diesel. Its to bad that cant happen here. Sure would be nice not to have to depend on foreign oil! I say the more we can depend on ourselves the better!

[Ralph Wiggum]

Putting a couple gallons of pre-mix into a full tank won't hurt a 4 stroke engine. Mybe I'd worry about putting it in a Ferarri, but for a normal car/truck, I wouldn't worry.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Gunflint, to answer your question, Ethanol is an alcohol made from corn. It can be made from tree bark, alfalfa, corn, wheat.....a ton of things, but most common is corn.

It's made just like the good ole boys made moonshine only on an industrial scale. The corn is "Milled" into flour and mixed with some water and enzymes. Then cooked a bit and put into fermenters with yeast. There is sits for a while and becomes beer. The beer is pumped through a series of distillation colums to seperate the alcohol from the other stuff. The pure (200) proof alcohol is mixed with just a tad of stuff we call denaturant. This drops the proof to about 199 and is now fuel grade and not food grade.

There ya go, in a nutshell. There is like a whole ton of other stuff going on, but that's the condensed version. If ya ever get to SW MN, drop me a line, I'll show ya around. It's kind of cool.

Even up-nort you have ethanol in your gasoline. Most people just don't know it.

[tashit]

A couple years ago during my last semester at college I took an internal combustion engines class. The instructor has done extensive research on this subject and he uses sunflower oil for bio-diesel. He can run an engine for hours on this stuff. He is a strong advocate of using sunflower oil and told us that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than the energy you get out of the ethanol. (Similar to that statement "it takes over a gallon of diesel to produce a gallon of ethanol.") I'm going to stop right here because this was almost two years ago and I don't remember everything but I will try to find my notes from that class tonight and take a look.

[Knotwood]

Did the instructor go into any processes involving synthetic fuels... like the coal liquification? Hitler used it to power his planes in WW2. It is expensive to manufacture, but if it gets to that point- guess who owns 75% of the coal reserves in the U.S.? The oil companies!

[Eric Wettschreck]

That info isn't true, or it's very one sided, or many items not properly researched, etc. I'm not knocking your instructor. There's like a ton of propaganda out there both for and against Ethanol. Ya kind of have to make up your own mind what to believe.

It's kinda similar to 2 guys walking up a hill. One guy is 400 pounds overweight carrying 52 pounds of stuff in a pack, heavy boots, and a gun will burn more calories than an in shape guy in shorts and sneakers.

There is a LOT of technology involved in making Ethanol. Some is good, some is so-so, some is bad. No different than any other manufacturing industry out there. If you're the fat guy carrying lots of stuff you arn't being very efficient or are using sub-par technology. The in shape guy has got ya whooped.

[cd3]

10 % now.but the state just passed a law increasing ethanol to 20%, im a little concerned this might cause problems in some motors..