Deer hunting/management thoughts

[Mark Christianson]

I have this hang up with deer and deer hunting. Wondering if anyone else thinks this way.

We have decided in recent years, we are going to pass on what we consider smaller bucks.

Here is my question.
Does anyone else have a hang up about shooting does/yearlings? I have read many times, that taking anterless deer out is necessary. I don't dispute that.
The reason I have a hang up about taking antlerless deer is two things.
1. I figure if I have more does hanging around, I will have a better chance pulling bucks on the property. I have heard the statement many times, "where you find does during the rut, you will find bucks". Makes sense.
2. My other hang up about taking anterless deer(yearlings), is that if I take a yearling, it could be a young buck. Well, if you shoot a young buck, he aint gonna get big and old.

Anyone else go through this?
I am not saying I absolutely refuse to shoot does or yearlings, but its just a few things that cross my mind when planning a hunt, or actually out hunting.

[bigbucks]

I'll shoot any anterless deer that I figure is in that 100 pound or close to it range & on up. If you're hunting on good land & you shoot the does, more will just show up. What also will happen it seems like is if you keep shooting them they'll have lots of twins. If you let the herd build up where they get crowded, then they'll start having singles.

Unless it get's late in the season I won't shoot any button bucks or antlered bucks less than what I think is 8 points or more & wider than the ears. If it's a big deer with a small rack that could vary. Like TomBow said, there's a ton of deer, there's no shortage, shoot some does & leave the smaller bucks go, but if you're going to hunt, shoot something.

[bigbucks]

I forgot, yearling bucks have antlers, buck fawns don't, but even those unless the light's low, if they're in bow range you should be able to tell if they're baby bucks. I've seen many fawns I could see the buttons or knobs, or whatever you want to call them.

If you're gun hunting & don't want to shoot any young bucks, don't shoot any fawns unless they're close enough you can see their head really well.

[TomBow]

Update from the deer section of the MN DNR HSOforum: Approx. 200,000 deer were taken last year. Didn't find numbers of the estimated total population.

[Swamp Scooter]

Well this is another good topic so here I go. I love to shoot the gun... I love to eat the meat...I love to be out in the woods, shooting or not...I hunted 24 years to get the chance to shoot my first 10 pointer...

That being said I will shoot antlerless but really try to identify them as buck or doe fawn.

We just got hunting land about 5 years ago and had this debate. We decided to shoot away for the first few years and then get a hang of how it was. So far no big bucks shot only three seen, during the season. A few forks and a spike the first year or so. I got a decent broken 8 last year on the last day. Lots of does and fawns. So far we have not been seeing bucks and not been shooting them as antlerless.

Now our area is earn-a-buck this year. I have to register a doe to get a sticker to shoot a buck. The old mentality is still strong in N WI. The winters have been moderate so almost all the deer live and throw twins. If you hunt with others in the same area and they do not manage the same way, you are usually just giving them the tag.

I guess the big thing is across the board consistancy in a large area. Also, be ready, winter will return one of these years and the times we are having now with tags a plenty will be gone. I remember bucks only, party of 8 applying for doe tags and getting one. Happy if we got a deer for each family, not family member!

BigLakeBa$$. I know you have your own area so this question is something you can at least control on your land.

By the way where is the big 11 you are after?

Apples for you next week.

[B mac]

Suprisingly enough, fewer does leads to much better buck hunting in a specific area. The lower the doe population, the more competition the bucks have to bread a hot doe during the rut. This in turn leads to rutting activity during daylight hours...bucks tend to move more frequently over farther distances and become more territorial. With a high doe population, often times rutting activity is confined to night time hours only.

I've witnessed this first hand.

[TomBow]

It depends on what the management ideal is. If your are managing for big bucks, let the small bucks and identifiable (nubs) yearlngs go and shoot does to bring the population in check. IMO we are dealing with years of a "don't shoot does" mentality which has left us with an unbalanced herd. The population keeps rising because there are plenty of healthy does that are putting out twins every year. The higher population starts eating it's habitat at a higher rate which means less food for each deer, doe or buck.
When I am actually hunting, I will shoot a nice doe if given the chance unless she is with this year's fawns. I don't have the luxury of managing a property's population but management is tricky if the neighbors don't agree to abide by the same rules as you and start shooting the smaller bucks when they cross the property line. I can't imagine getting to the point where the midwest states have an overall balanced herd. If one doe has twins, next year the population will be +3 deer instead of -1.
Okay that's my thoughts on shooting does.
Yearlings--I always let nubs go when I identify them.
Small bucks--In most cases, they are gonna walk away but if it's late in the season and there is no meat in the freezer, if the shot can be made clean, there will be meat in the freezer.
I look at the fact that we have a million plus deer population and have a quarter of that or less of total hunters. If they all average 1 deer that leaves 750,000 deer, probably over half of which are does and if 2/3rds of those does average 1 fawn, the population is right back to a million deer.
Granted I am just guessing about these numbers. But we are also cramming each deer herds into smaller and smaller areas because we keep "developing" their habitat.

Got me thinking now. Guess I'll look at the DNR HSOforum for info on hunter harvest rates, estimated deer population etc.

[PerchJerker]

I used to have the same concern you voiced - since bucks come looking for the does, why shoot does? But I've changed my thinking, and if I want to shoot a doe I'll take one the first chance I get. Here's why:
1. They talk about buck to doe ratios being 1 to 8, 1 to 10, even 1 to 12. There are more than enough does around and taking out a few does is not going to stop the bucks from coming around.
2. I agree with B mac -- with fewer does in an area you get a more visible rut. More bucks on the move during daytime, more bucks that are more responsive to calls and rattling and scents.
3. I like spending a lot of time in my bow stands, and those does can get pretty good at learning where and when you hunt. On several occasions I've seen bucks watch does in the fields for a while before they decide to come out. The last thing I want is to have a doe (or a bunch of does) scare away Big Daddy.
4. I also manage my land for deer, and I look at it like this. For every doe we shoot, there's that much more quality forage available for the bucks and remaining does, and hopefully I'll have healthier deer going into and coming out of winter.

Concerning fawns and yearlings, I put in enough time hunting that I don't have to worry about not filling my tag if I don't shoot them. But I don't think it's a problem to shoot them. I just tell the people that hunt with me to make sure it's not a buck fawn.

[Piker]

Great topic. I'll be doing more managing this season as well. The number of does is getting out of hand. I figure a nice doe is as good as a fork horn, so we might as well thin them a little. Hopefully, see bigger bucks coming from this practice. B Mac's thoughts are what I've been hearing and from the people I know that are doing it they are noticing more bucks as early as year two (That was last year for them).

[Mark Christianson]

Lets bump this up. I have been on vacation for the past 10 days, and just getting back home.

[BLACKJACK]

I have no problem whatsoever in taking a doe with a bow. I spend enough time sitting in a tree to know that does are just as smart as bucks, even smarter than small bucks, and are a real trophy when you shoot one. Plus they taste good and I like venison chops on the grill. And with the abundance of deer now, you can shoot that early doe and still hunt for Mr. Big later. I remember when I first started bowhunting, if you shot an early doe, you were done hunting. Deer hunting right now is as good as I've seen in my life time.

[BLACKJACK]

As far as your concern about shooting a fawn buck, I trrrrrry to shoot a big doe, but if the fawn is by itself, especially later in the season, its sometimes hard to tell by size. Some guys say you can see the nub horns or you can tell by their behavior, but I have a hard time doing it. If I happen to shoot one, hey it will be good eating. I'm not going to let that possiblity stop me from shooting does. One way to avoid shooting fawn bucks is to always shoot a doe that has fawns with her, you can pick her out by the size. Thinking back, I don't think I've ever shot a fawn buck with my bow because I do just that, pickout the doe when shes with her fawns.

Personally I think the majority of fawn bucks get shot during gun season, people see brown and its down, no time to evaluate size.

[Mark Christianson]

BJ
One downside IMO about taking the doe, is that the deer that succumb to a harsh winter first are usually the young of the year deer. That doe has experience on her side, and she has a much better chance of making it through winter.
Taking a fawn, I have heard is the better thing to do, since they are at the most risk.

Why am I making this so complicated????
I have no idea. Just trying to put together the best possible plan, but I should just hunt and shut up I think....

[echotrail]

I would not shoot at a yearling. They are still learning their survival skills and it just doesn't interest me to do that. For the most part I usually don't get too many quality shots during a hunt (6 days in zone 1) and I won't hesitate to take a adult doe if she presents a good oportunity. The past two years it happened to be adult bucks that were the first to show up. Prior to that I believe the previous 2 deer were does. They all tasted the same........GREAT!

[Beeber]

I have not been on this forum in a while so I'm a little late to this thread. I grew up in NE MN on a farm. I can remember sitting in a stand on many occasions with 15+ does eating in front of me and not an antler to be found. My party never shot does as everyone remembered the late sixties and early seventies when you hardly saw a deer during the season. Now we did shoot our share of big bucks and some of them were in the 150 class but if we managed 1 or 2 deer for our group of 6 we considered it a good year. Lately (The last 5 years) things have gotten better on the buck front but this thread got me to thinking about all those does we let go every year. I always thought it was funny as you would see lots of bucks during the summer but they were never around during the season. Our neighbors would always comment on the number of deer in our fields but I am sure they saw and shot more bucks during the season then we did. It kind of makes me think we would be better off shooting a few does if for no other reason than to be able to see more bucks.

Later

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Beeber

If the road less travled was smooth everyone would take it.

[dwag70]

I know what you mean about not shooting does. For years we never could shoot does in our area. You would get a doe permit every two years if you were lucky and applied every year. This year we are going with a point restriction. 6 or bigger. take any doe that comes by. This is a big change for us and after years of making sure it "had horns" bfore pulling the trigger it will be different. Will it change the balance of the herd ??? We will see. Plus like you it not the norm. This will be the first year since hunting this area it is shoot the does. That is a differrent kind of thinking for me. I beleive it is a matter of personal preference and despite what people think any deer is a trophy and a wall hanger is in the eyes of the person that pulls the trigger