ATV's and Grouse Hunting

[Ybone]

What does hauling trapping equipment in a truck have to do with hunting from an atv. I don't think anyone's complaining about using trucks or atvs to haul hunting equipment or to get to your hunting area. We've had this discussion before and someone always brings up the use of hunting dogs. It takes a lot of time and work to train and care for a dog but anyone with the cash can buy an atv and hunt from it the same day and cover at least 5 times as much ground as a hunter on foot.

[Dave]

Come on guys, let's type things clear.
If someone's shooting from the ATV, that's a no-no, period; illegal and unethical.
If someone's riding a trail, spots a bird, follows the law and goes after the bird, it's legal. Unethical? Depends who you ask.
Use a dog unethical? Depends who you ask.

Where's the limit on what we'll use to aid us in hunting? Depends who you ask. IF the wrong people get their way, we'll all be in trouble.

It's quite simple, I think.

[Wobbler]

Dave,
I agree with you on people sitting on their ATV's with a loaded gun and popping them off ATV's. That is a huge NO-NO! I agree with you on that if someone follows the LAW and shoots a bird with the aid of an ATV is lawful and in my eyes ethical.

I see that many hunters who use dogs train them, feed them, care for them all of that. I would know. Anyways like the message that I think most of us here all trying to say is that the more we tighten restrictions on our hunting the more the Anti's win and the more they will try to restrict us even more.

Looking through the posts many dog hunters including myself hate to admit that dogs greatly increase our chances at bagging grouse. I used to have a black lab and my father now has a setter. I have read through the posts with people commenting on all you have to do is buy an ATV then hunt. True. So what! Buy a gun and you can increase your hunting success too. My ATV needs to be fed (gas), groomed (washed) maintained (oil change) and loved (don't let it get scratched if I can help it) just like my dog. All the hours I work to pay for it and take care of it are not like those for a dog but is similar.

You guys will laugh but my toy poodle grouse hunts with me and I never once had to train her or spend time with her how to hunt. She goes in the woods about 20 feet in front of me and works the trail like a champ. She is not gun shy and she even drags the grouse to me when I get lucky and drop one all 8 pounds of her goes and gets it. She also likes to ride on the ATV and just be out in the woods.

The point here is lets hunt, have fun, turn in law breakers, and be ethical out there!

[Guest]

Who's responsibility is it to teach people who hunt to have some etiquette? Do ATV dealers hand something out? When you buy a shotgun, do they hand you a sheet about hunting etiquette? I thought it was nice to see the Star and Trib white something for duck hunting the other day. I just think that many people are out there hunting who didn't learn at a young age and have no clue as of what to do or not do. The fact whether you ride your ATV past someone and they still get a bird doesn't seem to be the point. I think it lessens the total experience by the guy walking with or without a dog. It's nice to be outside away from cars and people and then a guy comes riding by in his ATV. We can have all the habitat in the world, but if people are ignorant to what's right and wrong, hunting won't be as much fun for anyone.

[Dave]

BBP, that's along the same line as a when you're fishing and someone boats close by, or fishes next to ya. That's just a way of life, I guess.
I rather look at my time out in the woods as a glass half full and not half empty. What others do really doesn't bother me unless it's against the law.

[setterguy]

Ok where to start...I totally understand why people like hunting from an atv, I do. Less work, able to cover more ground and shoot they are fun to ride. I don't agree with the practice but totally understand it. Now I posted earlier that if it came up for vote I would vote against it, and I have read some posts here with a "we gotta stick together" attitude. My question is this where do you draw the line between your loyalty to other outdoorsmen/women and what you think is right? If a law came up to allow the shooting of deer from airplanes how many of you would vote for it just because we don't want more resrtictions? Or what about a law that allowed the use of explosives for fishing? These are extremes I know but to me the amount of ATV/Dirtbike traffic is becoming extreme as well. There are places in this state that I won't even go to anymore because of all the traffic. Now I am not complaining, using an ATV on State Forest Trails during small game season is legal, and I have to deal with it. But if it ever came to a vote I wouldn't hesitate to vote it down, and just because I choose to voice my opinion and beliefs doesn't mean I am a member of PETA or one of the anti's.

I have just one more question to those that do grouse hunt with an atv, when you are cruising down a trail and see a bird, which 60 feet do you go from your rig?

[Guest]

Setterguy,

All Sportsmen (able bodied sportsmen) will use their ATV's (if they have one) for transportation purposes only. I have yet to see a true sportsman or any other ATV users hunt from an ATV. Like Dave have mentioned ealier, ATV's are used for transporting the hunter to a location only, not to shoot games from. Why is this point not clear? There is a big difference between the two.

When you vote against ATV uses, you are anti-ATV. Remember the thing about using dogs in California? It could happen here too.

[Dave]

setterguy, yes, please tell us why you keep referring to it as hunting "from an ATV". That line's kind of getting old. We have all agreed that's not right to do. Some people do anyway but some people poach deer too; and that's not right either. That's life and someday they'll get caught.

[NoodleSalad]

Sound like there should be more laws in MN! That's what it seems to be coming to. I don't own an ATV, but I have no problem with those that do. Have you seen anyone shoot a bird off one? Or do you just assume. I'm just sick of people complaning about people that use other means than walking with thier grandpas over-under and trying to enjoy a day without hearing an ATV. It's the way it is and if you don't like it- go somewhere to avoid it! Truth--- -NS-

[Benny]

Dave, again you hit the nail on the head.The fact that people just can't get it out of their head that there is a differance from hunting from the atv to using it to drive to a site to hunt is the reason I don't get into it with them any more.

I take it to personal and won't back down from them , which ends up with the moderator locking the tread.

ybone, my point is simple.If I use the atv to drive deeper into the forest than the walking hunters will go, it is no defferant than protrapper using his truck to drive deeper into the forest to get to a secluded pond to trap.

But if you sit back and read some of the posts here, one would think that every one on an atv is shooting birds or game "from" the machine and not stoping the motor and walking 20 feet from it to bag a grouse.

So if protrapper uses a motor vehical to get to a pond, does that mean he is trapping illegaly??

As I said above , read the posts here.Almost every single one posted by a walking hunter or an anti atv person states the same thing.They all assume the atv rider is using his atv to bag more birds than them.When in fact the atv rider may just be on a recreational ride, or just want's to get further away from those who chose to walk and or use dogs to hunt.

Benny

[Wobbler]

Benny,
I am going to correct your last post. It is 20 YARDS not FEET from your ATV before you can legally shoot at a grouse with your motor off and all the while having your case completely closed until you shut off your machine. Not one person on here who uses an ATV says driving up to birds and shooting them off the ATV while it is running or driving around with an uncased gun is ethical or LEGAL.

I understand where some of you are coming from. There are rules already in place against shooting from any motor vehicle (Airplane) and those rules will never change. However, maybe the next time we cut out the ATV's I might start saying we should get rid of dogs too for hunting because that gives an advantage to others and not me. People will say that dogs are a tradition but ATV's are not. Really? So how long does it take to make a tradition? 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 100 years? Since I have been hunting using an ATV has been a TRADITION. According to Webster's a tradition means "a transmission of knowledge, customs, opinions, practices from generation to generation, a custom". My dad started hunting with his ATV and passed that practice to me, and soon my children will use that practice too. Sounds like a tradition to me.

[This message has been edited by Wobbler (edited 09-26-2003).]

[metrojoe]

There may have been some confusion early on in this discussion, but when I read the posts it seems very clear to me that everyone is in agreement that shooting from an OHV is frowned upon by all, and is a different issue than a hunter that uses an OHV for transportation purposes. I and other hunters I know would like to see limited use of OHVs during the entire Minnesota hunting season. (September to February)

I drove through Nemadji State Forest last weekend and there was some sort of OHV convention/rally taking place. I couldn’t believe the lack of respect or responsibility by the riders. They were riding everywhere. I think any further regulations will be the direct result of the recreational riders conduct on public land, not the hunter. I guess I’d have to agree with setterguy that if it came to a vote I would vote against the use of OHVs.

No matter which way you slice it, I just can’t find any good coming from adding more OHV trails to our public land. Just use Nemadji State Forest as an example. That forest is just about useless to anyone except OHVers.

A lot of people feel that their outdoor activity is lessened or diminished by all the OHV traffic. I would have to agree. I’ve read the statement “if it bothers you, go somewhere else” well where? Where can a person go where they won’t run into OHVers?. There are OHV trails in most if not all our state forests.

There has been a number of complaints by the OHV community that there isn’t enough places for them to ride. What if the decision is made to turn your favorite hunting woods(no matter what you hunt)into an OHV trail riding area? “Go somewhere else”, well I’m sorry to say that somewhere else is being considered for a future OHV trail.

I realize this may be a little off the intent of this post but I think this is just the beginning of a war between OHVers and public land use and as I stated above, it’s the recreational OHVers that are going to have more effect on future regulations and the hunters will just become a casualty of that war.

I also realize I’m only looking at it from the hunters point of view, but of course there are others that use our public lands and even though their numbers may be smaller I don’t think their opinions should be any less considered.

Here is a couple to consider and debate:

We have seasons for hunting, why not an OHV season. Memorial Day to Labor Day?

Why not extend the rules for OHV use during the Rifle season to include all hunting seasons.

What would be your suggestions to solving these issues and we’ve already heard “go somewhere else”. How about some real solutions, that will make an attempt to maximize everyone’s outdoor activity.

[This message has been edited by metrojoe (edited 09-26-2003).]

[Wobbler]

Metrojoe,
I guess I do not know where the Nemadji hunting area is. I know up by Orr they have the Echo Trail and there are many roads closed to ATV's that people can hunt. In fact where I hunt in the Superior National Forest I know of 3 DNR/State Trails that are only for walkers. That is one possible solution close certain trails just for walkers. I even know how to pay for that. A portion of licensing fees for ATV's goes back to habitat. What about having everyone buy a state license for their dogs for hunting? My 8 pound toy poodle can have a sticker on her butt with 2 inch lettering so someone can turn me in when my dog is breaking the law just like my ATV. A portion of that dog user fee can go towards creating trails for hunters with dogs and the other portion can pay for more DNR officers out their enforcing laws and the other portion can fix our state budget problem. I pay a license fee to use my ATV so maybe all of us who use dogs should too!

[metrojoe]

Wobbler,

I guess thats what I was trying to point out is that there are plenty of trails that are closed to OHVs but that doesn't stop them. If the DNR has no control over the existing trail system, how can we talk about adding more?

Over 50% of the DNR's funding comes from state taxes. State taxes that everyone pays.

Nobody is forcing you to own an ATV.

[This message has been edited by metrojoe (edited 09-26-2003).]

[Guest]

MetroJoe,

"Over 50% of the DNR's funding comes from state taxes. State taxes that everyone pays."

Why should OHV users be banned anymore than the rest of the population? They are tax payers, as well.

It is funny how some people will try to ban others' way of enjoyment. Public land is public land.

If we open up more trails, the number of OHV'ers will be dispersed and you will run into less of them on your outings. It is like our I494 congestions. Every time you hit it during rush hour, there are tons of cars using it.

Adding more trails will also prevent some of these "ruts" that the Anti's are "crying me river" over. Unfortunately, they do not see that point and wants to concentrate OHV's to only a few areas, if not eliminate OHV uses altogether.

Worbbler,

I like the sign on the dog's a$$. We should adopt that into law. LOL

[Wobbler]

Metrojoe,
I am just offering a solution like you asked. Maybe we should have user fees. I mean I ice fish and pay $11 for a shelter license. I would pay a hunting user fee for my ATV I would gladly pay for it. Maybe hunters who use dogs should pay for a stamp $5 or $10 and that money should go to designating trails off limits for ATV's.

I know our user fees for ATV's pay for 3 Conservation officers in this state that just deal directly for ATV law enforcement.

What do walkers and hunters who use dogs pay for other than there license? I don't see that group paying for extra DNR officers.

I can't stop people from breaking the law and driving their ATV's where they are not supposed to. I am not one of them. Turn them in! That is like saying we have tons of speeding cars and because I have a car I should get a consequence because EVERYONE speeds and we penalize everyone for that.

[Redlantern]

I understand that you atv hunters aren't shooting from the machine. I did start carrying a camera with me so I could take pics of the folks who do carry an uncased shotgun, but realistically, unless your right next to them to get the numbers off of the machines, how are you going to turn "them" in?
As far as using these for hunting, I don't have a problem with those that use it like a car or truck to get to the next hunting area. I just haven't seen many folks doing that. Normally they are putting along with the intent of seeing a grouse, getting off of the machine and shooting it. Since I don't rifle hunt for deer, I need to ask, is this type of behavior tolerated for deer season? I don't see it as being much different. Anyway, enough for now, I'm getting grumpy and that won't serve any purpose. Have a great weekend.

------------------
Erik

[Benny]

Wobbler, you are correct in the 20 yards.But where did you come up with the

" Not one person on here who uses an ATV says driving up to birds and shooting them off the ATV while it is running or driving around with an uncased gun is ethical or LEGAL."

I never said they were posting anything but disconsern for those misguided people who break the law.
I am simply pointing out the FACT that you can't read any post by any walking hunter or anti atv person that doesn't assume all the atv riders are bad or using the machines to hunt "from" the atv !

Now some of these people are starting to see that the way they worded their post is what up sets us atv people, there is a why we can all use the same trails and not spoil the other guys experiance.We as a group have to keep working out the differances first then a solution can be formulated to follow.But untill everyone see this and is willing to accept each others right to enjoy their perspective sport, there will be only disagreement and postings like these.

Bash me all you want from here on out, I won't be responding to this thread .
I will wait for the next one to pop up then post the same thing all over again.
Thanks for the civil debate, keep it going in a civil manner and it may be the start of the solution.

Benny

[Dave]

Metrojoe. I'll try and get you up to speed.
Your comments are in quotes...
"I and other hunters I know would like to see limited use of OHVs during the entire Minnesota hunting season. (September to February)"

ATVs already ready have limited use during the year. Designated trails are open May 15-Nov 1. Now, you're asking for more limits. Not reasonable when a lot of the registered machines are used for hunting season.

"A lot of people feel that their outdoor activity is lessened or diminished by all the OHV traffic."

Many people on lakes feel their use of the lake is diminished by the recreatioanl boaters, PWCs, fishing tournaments.

"I would have to agree. I’ve read the statement “if it bothers you, go somewhere else” well where? Where can a person go where they won’t run into OHVers?. There are OHV trails in most if not all our state forests."

If you were up to speed, the DNR is mapping and surveying all state forests within the next couple years. Trails will be designated and the rest of the forest close off. For now, you mean you can't find anywhere in 4 million acres of state and 4 million acres of county land to enjoy a hunt? You're kidding, right?

"There has been a number of complaints by the OHV community that there isn’t enough places for them to ride."

For the amount of machines, there's 900 miles of designated trails...and that includes some forest roads and railroad beds.

"What if the decision is made to turn your favorite hunting woods(no matter what you hunt)into an OHV trail riding area?

Guess what. MY favorite tree stand and deer hunting area is 75 yards from a popular ATV trail! I still see deer and have a great hunt.

“Go somewhere else”, well I’m sorry to say that somewhere else is being considered for a future OHV trail.

Ya can't have it all, sorry.

"but I think this is just the beginning of a war between OHVers and public land use"

The "war" has been going on for a few years already. Sorry you missed the first shot...lol The troops have retreated to their corners several times.

"and as I stated above, it’s the recreational OHVers that are going to have more effect on future regulations and the hunters will just become a casualty of that war."

Not really, IMO. The MN Deer Hunters Association stood up for ATV use during deer hunting and preseason scouting. Instead of deer hunters being prohibited to travel off trail, deer hunnters CAN travel off trail for 3 months retrieve game or build stands. Too bad the MDHA didn't include other hunters and just worried about their hunting season. Bear hunters can no longer travel off trail for baiting, for example.

"Here is a couple to consider and debate:
We have seasons for hunting, why not an OHV season. Memorial Day to Labor Day?"

As stated above, designated trails already have a season....the season gets shortened if it's too wet, too.

Sorry, this topic's getting old, has been through the mill and goes around and around...

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 09-26-2003).]

[metrojoe]

basshunter,
I don't think I was suggesting a ban of OHVs from public land. Limited use?.....Yes.

I only pointed out the state tax issue because wobbler's post made it sound like he thought his input should be placed above others.

(6 lanes of backed up traffic is not relieved by adding 2 lanes. It just creates the opportunity for 8 lanes of backed up traffic.)

I was really looking for solutions and debate. Is putting a sticker on my dogs butt the best you can do?

Got to go...I'll have to finsh later.

[Wobbler]

Metrojoe,
I offered you a great solution. Charge a fee for ATV's for hunting, put a sticker on my dog's butt (It would be cool to have just like the Pheasant Stamp and Duck stamp but have the Dog stamp). Use that fee money collected strictly to pay for more DNR enforcement, buy some land or create trails just for walkers? See most people think they are entiltled to something. Unfortunately, most of us PAY to get something. Nothing in this world is FREE. At least we as a group can say although it is not much we pay for 3 Conservation officers and have paid a fee to use public land through our ATV fees. What have the walkers and dog owners paid for which entitles them to decide what happens on Public Land? Taxes and a small game license like me. That is it. Remember I do walk and use a dog! The answer is ZERO!

[protrapper]

All one has to do is read the Outdoor News cuffs and collars section and see all the ATV complaints, accidents, and destruction, illegal operation, that the CO'S have to deal with.

And what i saw this weekend from the people coming up here from Stillwater area was unreal. Driving around gated trails, and one guy had his shotgun uncased on the front rack of his atv. Saw another group of guys in one of them atv's that looks like a big golf cart with dump box, and theres three guys in the thing. How is that hunting?? Also saw an one-who-thinks-I-am-silly shoot a bird on a dirt road five feet from his machine and it was still running...

This mostly goes on all weekends and over holiday breaks. If your gonna use them like that stay home. Or go to a dirt track or someplace.

[Benny]

Protrapper, if your concerned about this why not carry a cell phone and turn them in?You can barrow one if you don't have one, and they don't weight very much so thier not to heavy to carry.

I was up near Moose lake this Sunday afternoon, didn't see any walking hunters or bad ATV operators at all.Seems funny how it is only a few people who see any of this stuff happening.
It's easy for any one to read the cuffs and collars and see the money making hype the DNR is putting out there.They need the press to help them get more money to fund their petty coffers, what better why than to jump on a band wagon that already is generating cash for the press.
I personaly know a CO from the Grand Rapids area, he has told me on several occations that they are told to only target the ATV's.
The DNR headquarters wants the publicity so they can gain favor amoung the genral public.
They don't care about the poachers, as that desn't gain them the news print.
Benny

[This message has been edited by Benny (edited 09-29-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Benny (edited 09-29-2003).]

[Wobbler]

Benny,
I went back and read the posting and I feel like you misunderstand me. I know exactly where you stand. The only point I was trying to make was that 20 yards is 3 times farther than 20 feet. If you read anything more into it I apologize.

I guess I can make a comment here and then not check it for a few days because I will be gone but just like ice fishing you have knuckle heads on a weekend trying to ice fish by you (Weekend Warriors) why don't all of you walk trails during the week? I know many people work but after work drive to your favorite spot and hunt.

Another point. Where I hunt the locals are not the problem with ATV's. It is the "612 ers. or citidiots like they are called where I hunt that are the problem. They think they rule the woods. They drive up in their $50,000 SUV with the critical habitat license plate, stay in a camper, have $1,500 shotguns, wear everything they sell at Cabelas, have never hunted a particular spot before, and try to hunt. I am not saying that is the norm but that is the stereotype I hear many times and at least where I hunt and live that all the locals can pick out the metro hunters.

I am not here to bash a particular group and my last paragraph was not meant to cause bad feelings. I am just pointing out an obervation I have made through my hunting experiences or what all hunters I talk to say.

[metrojoe]

Wobbler,
If the increase in CO's is needed because of the increase in OHV activity then you should be responsable for the cost.

Dave,
Thanks for the info Dave. I realize the OHV issue has been around for awhile now, it's just I have tried to refrained from posting on it because it usually turns ugly and the post gets locked or deleted. I’ll admit I’m not up to date on OHV issue. I guess my frustration is coming from the fact that I have been spending a lot more time in the woods now that hunting season is open and I’m just having trouble accepting the fact that the sound of OHV’s is now a regular part of my hunting experience. With all the Public land in this state I’m sure I can find an area to hunt. I’ll just have to get an ATV to get there. .