White spruce or White cedar

[minky]

I am purchasing some trees to improve the thermal cover on my northern pine county hunting land, which would be better white spruce or white cedar?

I know they both are slow growing but I am hoping they would be hardy.

[delcecchi]

My guess is that white cedar won't survive due to things eating them.

[smsmith]

What's the soil like? White spruce does better on drier, upland soils than does white cedar. Vice versa on damp-moist low land soils.

As del noted...white cedar is highly preferred winter time browse for deer and bunnies.

[minky]

I have both kinds of soil.

I think I am going to plant 50 white spruce for cover and take a chance and plant 25 white cedar for browse.

I also will be planting some red dogwood for browse.

[smsmith]

I have both kinds of soil.

I think I am going to plant 50 white spruce for cover and take a chance and plant 25 white cedar for browse.

I also will be planting some red dogwood for browse.

You never know til you try. I've got 1625 assorted evergreens going in this spring. Happy planting

[fivebucks]

Cap the buds on the cedar or cage them. It's only 25 pieces so not too much work. We have a bunch of white cedar on our cabin property and we will see the seedlings sprout up and grow thru the summer and fall but they are always gone come spring. That stuff is deer candy.

[minky]

Good advice everyone, I think I will bud cap the white cedar, this sounds the easiest.

Smith, how many acres will all those evergreens be planted on?

Just as a side note, I was up at my land last Friday, some deer sign \ not to much snow (about 4 inches in the woods).

I hope the deer that are left come thru the winter in good shape.

[smsmith]

87..I'll be planting a bunch in a 2ish acre clearcut. The rest will get scattered in clumps/lines throughout the property.

[minky]

I think i enjoy working on and improving my land as much as I do hunting it!

[smsmith]

I think i enjoy working on and improving my land as much as I do hunting it!

I know I enjoy working on and improving my land more than I do hunting it. Habitat improvement is nearly a year round activity (depending on winter conditions anyway)...hunting is only a few months a year.

[delcecchi]

Judging by the cedars along the shore of Lake Vermilion, bud capping won't do the job. Deer will eat the whole thing.

But go for it, might work..

[smsmith]

I planted 200 white cedars here last spring. Browsing noted on them so far...zero. Once they get established, I anticipate some damage annually. That said, I've been making a mental note of observing any white cedars in my area and whether they've been browsed or not...and what I've noticed is that a great number of 5-10 year old trees show zero damage. Obviously, that's a purely anecdotal observation...but its clear that when the deer herd is suppressed to the current levels in this area that white cedars can be grown. Fantastic news for the complete lack of sawmills in this area

[LABS4ME]

White cedar is one of the components missing across big swaths of the northern deer range in regards to the old traditional winter yards for deer. Where there were once big tracts of white cedar swamp, they are gone now from harvesting and now other trees taking over. Deer researchers are finding this may be one of the most important trees to get deer through a hard winter... high calorie, easily digestable browse, increased thermal temps and lower snow pack in a cedar swamp all help carry a deer herd through.

I'd say do what you can to get some white cedar going and hopefully nature will get them big enough to start producing their own seedlings

Good Luck!

Ken

[minky]

I wonder what would happen if we as a state of deer hunters, worked to bring back our native stands of white cedar?

Looking at the above post, the white cedar could help more deer survive the winter.

[smsmith]

I wonder what would happen if we as a state of deer hunters, worked to bring back our native stands of white cedar?

Looking at the above post, the white cedar could help more deer survive the winter.

I'm in...good luck with everybody else though Trying to get a consensus of deer hunters on anything is apparently more difficult than advanced Trigonometry

[swamptiger]

Quote:

I wonder what would happen if we as a state of deer hunters, worked to bring back our native stands of white cedar?

Looking at the above post, the white cedar could help more deer survive the winter.

Might work if we can get the deer herd low enough...

Most of the original cedar stands were here before the deer.

But good luck anyway.

[smsmith]

Might work if we can get the deer herd low enough...

Most of the original cedar stands were here before the deer.

But good luck anyway.

A guy would think the two are directly related...but in many areas of EC, NC, and NE WI there are huge, dense stands of regenerating white cedars...many of which are in areas with deer densities from 50-100.

[swamptiger]

Wonder what the secret is?

Not sure how heavily the deer browse on young cedar regrowth. The problem I've seen with most of the cedar swamps in northern MN is there simply isn't any regeneration to speak of.

[smsmith]

Wonder what the secret is?

Not sure how heavily the deer browse on young cedar regrowth. The problem I've seen with most of the cedar swamps in northern MN is there simply isn't any regeneration to speak of.

I do too. I've spent a lot of time pondering such things. I agree, white cedar regen in most northern MN is poor. It is here in central MN as well. I had regenerating white cedars on my old place in southcentral WI where I had 2-4 times the deer herd that exists here (varied based on year)

[swamptiger]

Might have something to do with alternate food sources. I know around here the deer don't head to the cedar swamps unless the snow gets pretty deep.

[smsmith]

Might have something to do with alternate food sources. I know around here the deer don't head to the cedar swamps unless the snow gets pretty deep.

If I were going to take a stab at the reason...that would likely be my guess as well. Deer head to the cedar swamps in WI as well, but perhaps there is a greater diversity of food.

That would potentially "solve" the question for northern MN, but here in the transition zone there are plenty of alternate food sources.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

That would potentially "solve" the question for northern MN, but here in the transition zone there are plenty of alternate food sources.

It will be interesting to see how your planting effort works out. The DNR hasn't really attempted much re-seeding of cedar - presumably because of the assumption that the deer would eat it as fast as they plant it..

[smsmith]

It will be interesting to see how your planting effort works out. The DNR hasn't really attempted much re-seeding of cedar - presumably because of the assumption that the deer would eat it as fast as they plant it..

Yes, it will. I'm not putting any white cedars in this year as I'm focusing on upland plantings, but the couple hundred I put in last spring should be an indicator of sorts.

[fivebucks]

If you look at any shoreline that has cedar trees you will notice all the lower branches are eaten up to the height that deer can reach from the ice.

[minky]

Maybe the DNR should take some money from the deer feeding fund and plant some stands of white cedar.

Even if they had to cage the trees until they got big it would be better then doing nothing!