White Bear Lake

[Comit 2]

If White Bear Lake is losing most of its water through aquifers, wouldn't it make sence for them to stop handing out building permits in the area of that aquifer? How could the DNR be liable?

Maybe someone could shed a little light on this for me. It just sounds like everyone is just passing the blame or trying to make a buck.

[skee0025]

For all the talk of WBL being so low the last few years I'm suprised we havent heard word 1 about how all the rain this spring has effected lake levels if at all.

[Comit 2]

This morning they said it is at normal levels, no no wake limit so come out and have some fun on the water. They don't expect it to remain up at normal levels.

[Basschaser]

This morning they said it is at normal levels, no no wake limit so come out and have some fun on the water. They don't expect it to remain up at normal levels.

Who is "they"?

[Comit 2]

Ch 5 or Ch 9 news Coverd it on Monday morning.

[Tom7227]

From DNR HSOforum

Water Level Data

Period of record: 01/01/1924 to 06/22/2014

# of readings: 6153

Highest recorded: 926.7 ft (06/20/1943)

Lowest recorded: 918.84 ft (01/10/2013)

Recorded range: 7.86 ft

Last reading: 921.94 ft (06/22/2014)

Ordinary High Water Level (OHW) elevation: 924.89

[Comit 2]

So the flood brought the water level up 3 feet to 3 feet below (OHW).

Ok I'll try this another way.

So if water leves are unusually high we have to protect the lakeshore owners. If the water levels on a lake are unusually low (for no apparent reason) we all look the other way. Why?

Something smells fishy.

[TR21HP]

The aquifer that supplies White Bear Lake is being tapped for other cities to supply their water needs. The Association is asking to divert the flooded waters of the Mississippi River to increase volume in the lake to restablish a normal O.W.L. I don't know if they have the infrastructure in place to do that but it would seem like a good fix if it wasn't cost prohibitive.

[delcecchi]

The aquifer that supplies White Bear Lake is being tapped for other cities to supply their water needs. The Association is asking to divert the flooded waters of the Mississippi River to increase volume in the lake to restablish a normal O.W.L. I don't know if they have the infrastructure in place to do that but it would seem like a good fix if it wasn't cost prohibitive.

The infrastructure is not in place. Cost prohibitive is in the eye of the beholder.

[Tom7227]

Augmenting the lake with river water is projected to cost $24 million by the group that supports it, around $50 million by the PCA with an annual operating cost in the hundreds of thousands. But it doesn't seem to solve the problem which is that the low aquifer levels in the summer cause the lake to lose water.

Well pumping and drought are the likely culprits. The aquifer is huge with lakes on the Chisago chain also likely suffering. Shutting down wells by using river water treated by the Saint Paul Regional Water Service is a reasonable solution IMO and should be done even if the lake comes up. Costs for that are lower than even the low cost of augmentation.

[mallardnwalleye]

The White-Bear Lake has the unique quality of becoming more specious than it already is as it drops and becomes shallower.

We need to:

1. Find out with a reasonable amount of certainty how much and why the lake may be down so much.

2. Fix the problem permanently and in the lowest cost and most effective way for the public.

Unfortunately when people look into White Bear Lake's water they seem to get tunnel vision that is myopic and all they see are their own specific self interests.

[delcecchi]

The White-Bear Lake has the unique quality of becoming more specious than it already is as it drops and becomes shallower.

We need to:

1. Find out with a reasonable amount of certainty how much and why the lake may be down so much.

2. Fix the problem permanently and in the lowest cost and most effective way for the public.

Unfortunately when people look into White Bear Lake's water they seem to get tunnel vision that is myopic and all they see are their own specific self interests.

I believe that part 1 has been done. Part 2 is a matter of politics and who pays.

[Tom7227]

The USGS continues to study the flow of water around the lake trying to where the water is going and also how water is getting into the lake. I believe the results of that study are due sometime this late summer.

Since any 'solution' will involve significant dollars and multiple jurisdictions implementation will be a long time coming IMO.

[mallardnwalleye]

I believe that part 1 has been done. Part 2 is a matter of politics and who pays.

Part 1 is not done, It has started and lower aquifer levels and groundwater pumping have a high "conditional probability" of being responsible for quite a portion of White Bear Lake's low level. A current study will increase our information about the lake and the groundwater system(s) around it. The study should help us move closer to a permanent, cost effective, and area wide solution for the public.

Unfortunately we have seen an attempt to have part 2 start (with the direct White Bear Augmentation idea) before part 1 is complete.

As the carpenter's saying goes "measure twice - cut once" . If you cut short on our lakes there won't be a second act.

[delcecchi]

Part 1 is not done, It has started and lower aquifer levels and groundwater pumping have a high "conditional probability" of being responsible for quite a portion of White Bear Lake's low level. A current study will increase our information about the lake and the groundwater system(s) around it. The study should help us move closer to a permanent, cost effective, and area wide solution for the public.

Unfortunately we have seen an attempt to have part 2 start (with the direct White Bear Augmentation idea) before part 1 is complete.

As the carpenter's saying goes "measure twice - cut once" . If you cut short on our lakes there won't be a second act.

That's good to know, that the study is continuing. So which solution do you think most likely? Hook all the NE suburbs up to St Paul water so they stop pumping? Or pump water into the lake from the river? Isn't that the two possible solutions?

[Tom7227]

Using St. Paul Regional Water for many of the municipalities makes sense to me as they are well below the amount of water that they are allotted to take from the river. There is some discussion to building a water treatment plant someplace up north here but I haven't seen any explanation as to why that would make sense.

IMO augmenting the lake is a total waste of money. The lake has fluctuated at least this much for centuries. The difference now is the excessive use of groundwater particularly in the summers. Solve that problem and what happens to the lake is what happens due to natural forces.

[delcecchi]

Using St. Paul Regional Water for many of the municipalities makes sense to me as they are well below the amount of water that they are allotted to take from the river. There is some discussion to building a water treatment plant someplace up north here but I haven't seen any explanation as to why that would make sense.

IMO augmenting the lake is a total waste of money. The lake has fluctuated at least this much for centuries. The difference now is the excessive use of groundwater particularly in the summers. Solve that problem and what happens to the lake is what happens due to natural forces.

I think it all comes down to the do re mi. Who pays. If river water is used directly to augment the lake, White Bear property owners will be paying. If Mounds View, Hugo, Centerville, Vadnais Heights etc have to convert to St Paul water, they will pay and the White Bear folks will pay less.

Of course it could end up paid by the Met council or the state in which case a lot more people have to pay.

[Ebiz]

Quote:

Of course it could end up paid by the Met council or the state in which case a lot more people have to pay.

For a variety of reasons I hope they keep the Met Council out this...

[Tom7227]

Explanation of next moves.

http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news/article_45f6ae30-fc80-11e3-9885-0019bb2963f4.html

[mallardnwalleye]

That's good to know, that the study is continuing. So which solution do you think most likely? Hook all the NE suburbs up to St Paul water so they stop pumping?