Curious APR in the 300 zones

[HandGunner]

Any idea on the APR rules for the 300 zones this year? its been 4? years with the rule still in effect and 3 years of deer tags still new for me. Our heard hasnt shown any growth in 8 points and up I know its the gene pool were we are. We are meat hunters but been going home with only one deer the last 3 years. Im wondering if they are going to drop the regulation this year, hopefully they do Id like to get one finaly just wondering not debating or stiring up arguments and debates. I got a new S&W 460 last year and 4 families to feed still hasnt paid itself off ha sucks for me. Other than that I been seeing alot of fork horns and 6 points around not manny doe at all anymore but them little horned boys have been growing big bodies small racks.

[mntatonka]

APR isn't going away any time soon, it's Lou's baby. Bag limits in parts of zone 3 will probably be increased back to intensive harvest (maybe with early antlerless sub permit areas again), and other parts will be decreased to hunters choice.

It might be the gene pool in your area, especially since you can no longer take out those bucks that don't get to 8 points, so they keep getting older and never getting to 8 points, all while spreading those genes throughout the herd in that area.

[SmellEsox]

The chances that it is the gene pool is pretty close to 0%. They're just young.

[HandGunner]

In 20 years of hunting the land my elders say theres always a few 8 points always more spikes forks and 6 and only about 3 or 4 spoyted to be any bigger and some big boys too but those are the only ones talked about in years of hunting. They all have one thing in common, dirty brown ugly scrubby racks, my dad got the one big ugly boy 2 years ago people have been chasing for the past 3 years priorto when he got harvested. Big ugly mean rack though. So yes id say it is the gene pool not too far away in the same zone 20 mins away the racks are wayy nicer their they have hunted their a few times as well. Its hard to say when the past years we been near empty handed and already know the majority isnt going to be a 8 and bigger kind of sucks might have to quit hunting finances are not easy for alot of people to hunt doe populations have dropped as well. Will have to see.

[PurpleFloyd]

I would suspect that the lack of rack size would be more likely due to diet and harvest patterns than genetics.

[HandGunner]

its not just rack size but the look and feel the heards most of the racks are always dark dirty and rough the other place not too far away their racks are bigger and clean smooth

[SmellEsox]

its not just rack size but the look and feel the heards most of the racks are always dark dirty and rough the other place not too far away their racks are bigger and clean smooth

Do you have any pictures of these bucks?

[B. Amish]

it's called high-grading. same thing happened in Missouri.

it's not genetics.... yet.

[SmellEsox]

it's called high-grading. same thing happened in Missouri.

it's not genetics.... yet.

Has that been studied and confirmed?

[HandGunner]

this first buck is the one nicer clean smooth racked buck My dad had taken when I was a wee little lad. A family member and a friend still hunts the area 20 mins away from us and reports for the most part the place hasnt changed still nicer racked deer roaming compaired to our place

in order the small 8 I shot at 16 years in 2009

The spike I took at 17 in 2010 when they first started APR for us

After those 2 I been going home empty handed once I turned 18 and had to apply to APR rules, still kept seeing similar small racked deer each year

The big boy my dad shot in 2012 is the one people had been chasing for 3 years prior to him being harvested by my dad the only one big deer everyone knew in the area. Notice the rack is dark in color real rough and not as pretty for a rack as the very first 2 pics from the buck 20 mins away.

the same big rack is above a small 8 point rack from 2009 after I took my 8 my dad also took one and the rack from his is also dark dirty and not so pretty compaired to the other place. That 8 was near 2 times bigger than my dads ugly big boy. other than those deer I have shown you guys the rest harvested in past years by us and everyone else their are small 8's much like mine from 2009 and before APR just alot of forks spikes and 6 and doe. Every since APR started about 50% of us go home empty handed to this day

[SmellEsox]

Don't see any genetic issues there! Wow! Rack color is more a function of the trees they are rubbing on from what I've always read. Rough antlers is also a function of older age. Bucks get more trash and burring as they get older. I believe the deer you are shooting are just young deer. 50% success is pretty good when compared to the statewide average. The 8 pointers are probably just 2.5 year old deer. If you pass those, you'll see some real brutes.

[HandGunner]

the dirty 8 point was just wee bigger than mine from 2009 and its from a deer id say older and near 2 times bigger than the big one of the pics I posted though. Before we had a good harvest each year with intesive harvest mostly everyone went home with 1 deer a person in the bigger groups and our 3 person group would go home with almost 2 a person and help out the empty handed groups giving them a doe or 2 if we harvested any. The first year however of APR it was still intensive harvest and we heard one of the big groups bagged 25 doe that year. We may hunt the other spot 20 mins away this year in hope of being able to harvest 8's or in hopes there are more doe in that place plus our place has gotten over crowded and trouble a brewing with bad eggs polluting and leaving campfires burning when they leave.

[HandGunner]

dont freak on the weird looking could be 6 point that is actualy a 7 that was a 8. Uncles had a weird angle shot which ricocheted took out a point but his 460 still had enough power to drive half the bullet into the neck along with the point that was taken out for a unusual quick kill

[SmellEsox]

Sounds like hunting pressure and overharvest of does is the biggest problem in your hunting area, not APR. Also, don't get confused about rack size and body size. Often, bucks with the biggest racks do not have the largest body size. In Camp Ripley this is often true. Many times the biggest racked deer aren't even close to the largest bodied. Also, mature bucks can lose a ton of weight during the rut. I shot a big mature (I was told it was older than 5.5 by a biologist) Iowa whitetail that weighed around 180 pounds dressed. He had nearly 160 inches of antler. There was another dominant buck in the same woods that probably would have scored in the 130s that was easily 50 pounds heavier. He was a brute.

[HandGunner]

I have alot of mixed emotions on this thats about all.

Yea alot of land had been sold in the 20+ years their before anywere wooded was state owned My dad tells me stories of how back then you would shoot one dress it find another while your dressing the one you just shot shoot that one and on the way back to camp shoot another and your set to go home on the first day.

We drove around the area they showed me all the places they have tried but said the spot were in has the most corn and the most deer. Im hoping we move to the other place this year our place has gotten sooooo over crowded and me and my dad control a "mountain" just us 2 and its one of the key travel routes but latley the past 3 years other groups have braught more and more ppl and have been moving their "kids" closer to us each year to try and push us away from our spots.

We catch them barley off the ground for deer to spot them and they just sit their hang around smoke ciggarettes. When my dad took a shot at a deer one year at a doe after she dropped he said a small fork ran off from one of the stoops sitting barley 100 yards away from him saw the guy walk off and heard 4 shots pop off, said he was probobly PO'ed because his shot on the doe scared his illegal fork away. Sketchy stuff goes on their we try to get to know the American hunters their as we are of asian race we like to inform everyone who we are and what we are about and let everyone know where we are so we dont end up hunting too close to eachother. We dont want to alienate ourselves and for the most part the American land owners that hunt their with us are the only friendliest people we talk to their. Theirs always that tension you cant deny it but as long as we all introduce ourselves and share what we are doing and our hunting plans we make new friends and have a better time and experience hunting. A new American family started hunting during the 3A season their camp is in the woods close to where my uncle always sits we informed them were he sits what he uses and asked were their land starts and ends so we can move him further away for their saftey and convenience they had no problem as well us great people met the land owner for the first time too cool guy.

[smsmith]

I'm not going to comment on everything else Handgunner...but I will on this point. If you're living in America...you're an American. If you haven't attained citizenship yet, I wish you well on doing so.

We're all Americans. Some of us may be of German, English, Polish, Nigerian, Thai, Indian, Mongolian,........whatever descent. We're all frickin' Americans

[HandGunner]

Yea I didnt want to offend anyone by saying white or Caucasian I always tell ignorant ppl I run into, I was born here I am a American first Asian american to be specific in the end we all love this country I can be as redneck as the next guy I love my outdoors and I love sharing it with my fellow Americans

[SmellEsox]

Handgunner, those are some dandy bucks bro! Wish you good luck on your future hunts. There are a lot of hunters in the state that are upset with their hunting. There were way more deer several years ago. Liberal antlerless harvests the last 10+ years has really cut into the quality of the hunt. We need does to produce bucks. We shot too many in most areas of the state. I am hoping that DNR will back off antlerless tags and allow the herd to recover some.

[1eyeReD]

I've always seen forkhorns and spikes in my area, and bigger bucks pop up every once in a while without offering me a shot of course. However, the spikes and forkhorns are becoming more numerous with lots of 6pts added last year. I think the APR is working though for the guys who want bigger bucks. The APR sure saved a few of those heavier 6 pts that walked under me, I'll tell you that. I'm glad my itchin to "take one and get it over with" is under the control of this APR rule because as the season wears on and I rack up many hours in the woods, I become more eager to drop the string on a deer.

To each his own, but I like the APR. Let em grow!! As for less does, it doesn't seem that way where I hunt. I'm usually somewhere between Wabasha and Red Wing throughout most of the archery season and seen deer #'s improve in some parts and decline in others but I think it's more due to the shifting amount of pressure on these larger tracts of state land. People will push deer in and out of areas. On properties where other hunters are present, I'll see tons of deer throughout the first few weekends and they seem to thin out. Once that happens, I move to the back of the property where the walk starts to get ridiculous and find them again. All I know is, I'm seeing more younger bucks recently which tells me, more will have the chance to hit that 8 pt mark so that is a plus.

I passed on what I thought was a 6 with thick bases last fall at my primary spot which turned out to have a 4th point on each side creating a crab claw when he got close. The 4th pts were questionable in length, but I think it was because I was 20 ft up the tree and 20 yds away. They had to have measured more than an inch for me to see from that distance. Anyhow, if that guy survived, hopefully, he has a nicer rack this year. Seen some more bruisers in my primary area as well which you didn't see too much of 4 yrs ago. Now if I can only position myself a little better this season..

BTW Handgunner.. Those are some wicked bucks you guys got there. Way to go man!

[InTheNorthwoods]

I'd guess the main reason people are seeing more bucks with less antler points is because those deer aren't getting killed the first time they are in a hunters sights. If they aren't dead, more people will see them.

Also, all antlers are essentially the same color to start with. Antlers get their "color" from the staining the trees, bushes, dirt, etc. that they rub on transfers to the antlers. Much like pine wood, you can change the color of it by using different stains.

[PurpleFloyd]

Don't see any genetic issues there! Wow! Rack color is more a function of the trees they are rubbing on from what I've always read. Rough antlers is also a function of older age. Bucks get more trash and burring as they get older. I believe the deer you are shooting are just young deer. 50% success is pretty good when compared to the statewide average. The 8 pointers are probably just 2.5 year old deer. If you pass those, you'll see some real brutes.

Agreed.

As a side point, Personally I like the twisted, gnarly racks. They have character.

[HandGunner]

well I am curious if the fork and 6 point I saw in 2013 are the same ones I seen in 2012 when I saw them I had some what of a sixth sense LOL well if APR stays it stays cant do much but do you guys think the 6 point could be a 8 this year? Maybe it was the group that took 25 doe the first year (or second?) that caused the dramatic drop in doe sightings in the woods

[SmellEsox]

well I am curious if the fork and 6 point I saw in 2013 are the same ones I seen in 2012 when I saw them I had some what of a sixth sense LOL well if APR stays it stays cant do much but do you guys think the 6 point could be a 8 this year? Maybe it was the group that took 25 doe the first year (or second?) that caused the dramatic drop in doe sightings in the woods

I honestly doubt that those bucks were the ones you saw in 2012. And, while the 6 could always be a 6, if he was a yearling last year, it could probably be anything from a bigger 6 to a small basket 10 this year. It is impossible to know what they will grow into when they are yearling (1.5 year old). So many things factor into yearling buck antler size (was he the fawn of a fawn, was he a twin, was he conceived late, how stressed was the doe during winter, etc.). I think once they get to 2.5 years old you can maybe better predict what they will be when they get older.

[fr0sty]

I have seen photos of deer in the process of shedding and some antlers range from ivory white to chocolate. I think there more involved with antler color than just what stuff bucks rub on.

[johnsd16]

Some areas just hold smaller bucks during the rut too. One place I used to hunt would have a mix of all size/age class bucks all summer into about mid October, then all the mature bucks would disappear. Similarly, I have another spot where it's pretty rare to see any buck other than a 1.5 yr old until late October. After that, pretty much any buck I see is going to be a decent 2.5 or better.

No offense, but I don't buy the whole, I'm going to have to quit hunting because I can't go out and see a legal deer to feed my family. If you really want to feed families, hunting is probably not the best way to go about it. If you took all the money spent in guns, clothes, boots, tags, ammo, optics, travel, food away from home, etc; you could buy a lot of chicken, pork, turkey, whatever. Heck, buy some pigs or chicks in the spring and feed them out, way cheaper if you have the space.

Also, if you say you have had tag soup for two years that means you haven't had a shot at a legal buck or any antlerless deer for three years. That's tough to do. I have no sympathy for someone that wants to hold out for a legal buck but then complains about not being able to feed their family.