Could this be a way to stop regulators from freezing up?

[hawgchaser]

Sam,

Since the Einsteins are not responding, you'll hear from a laypersonstein. I've been ice fishing for almost 6 decades and have NEVER had a regulator or tank freeze up. The coldest I remember being out was -38. Given my lack of freeze up history, I'll share my strategy. I never take my heater or 20lb. tanks inside to warm them up. If I'm going to the house the next day both stay with the house...regardless of temp. When fishing with portables on LOW, most of my buddies pull there Otter sleds into our host's large heated shop. Mine stays outside for fear of hearing my long deceased father's voice yelling about the evils of condensation if/when I neglected to fuel up the tractor at the end of cool Spring & Fall days. I've probably only had 3 or 4 tanks run dry as I don't want to have them sucking in atmospheric air when empty. I usually refill with a lb. or so of propane left in them.

My near-20 year old Paulin Pup died last winter and (after taking it apart) I found the regulator to be completely stuck...couldn't get air to flow through either end. My "Bride" accuses me of breaking things just so I can take them apart, so, after taking/cutting it apart, I found all the actual guts of the regulator mechanism coated with a powdery film similar to the lime that gathers on a dripping faucet. My conclusion was the effects of moisture and impurities in the air had collected on those guts to the point that, when gas flowed through and cooled/shrunk the regulator, the moving parts were unable to move, not because of the immediate moisture, but from the effects of the moisture over time.

The fact that you get more frost when allowing more gas to flow through the line leads me to believe that the diaphragm in the regulator is sticking open and that you, in fact, are acting as the regulator. Here is where I am guessing with no technical knowledge. With all the safety features on propane stoves/heaters/tanks, I'm wondering if freeze up is really freeze up at all. Could it be that the freeze up is but one or more of the safeguards doing exactly what they are designed to do?

Some seem put out by the freeze up discussions. I find them interesting and intriguing. Good luck!

[CANOPY SAM]

Thanks HC. That answer would make complete sense, as obviously you've had some experience with the issue, and found a clear piece of evidence to support your theory.

It still leaves me wondering though. The regulator I'm using is brand new. Comes along with the contractors heater attached to the gas line itself. Even the tank I'm using for propane is relatively new, and was just recently refilled.

Is it possible, and I know this might be a stretch, that the propane we're now buying is not as pure as we might expect, and as such it has a higher boiling point then what we might think?

Again, I'm certain the ambient temp in the garage is higher then the outside temperature, and even if it weren't, it certainly isn't below -44 degrees F. HC, it's not internal mineral deposit that's clogging my regulator. I can see and feel ice/condensation on the exterior of the tank and regulator.

I'm vexed. Reading other threads and posts, this is obviously a really big problem this year for a LOT of people! If we're all buying gas that is not what "they" say it is, this could possibly account for why the predetermined boiling point for our propane is not where it should be. It is freezing (or NOT boiling) at a higher temp then what should be expected?

[hawgchaser]

I don't know if it's true or not, but my neighbor has done over the road trucking. He told me they transport propane and liquid ammonia in the same tankers. I know when I dissected my Paulin and took the control valve apart, there was considerable gooey, black, rubber-like crud in it. Same neighbor told me that trace ammonia might be degrading the hose from the tank. Buddy sure pushes the filter to put in front of your heaters. I thought it was more a way to grab some extra bucks, but maybe not.

[river rat316]

Sam, when it is cold outside the small amount of surface area inside a 20lb propane cylinder is not allowing the propane to boil off fast enough to run your heater properly. That is the easiest explanation there is, this problem gets worse as the cylinder gets lower, happens on 100lbers also but not until they are down below 5-10lbs in them. The new style valves also restrict flow which does not help the problem. If you are running anything over 15-20,000 btu's it is recommended to step up the cylinder size accordingly, anything over 50,000 btu's you should have a 100lber or bigger hooked up.

Someone asked earlier why we don't have problems with our houses and the bigger 500 gallon tanks, it is because they have more surface area for the propane to boil off, but if the tank is low and it is extremely cold out for an extended period there would be problems. That is why they recommend you to keep your tank above 10-15%

[Gordie]

Sam, when it is cold outside the small amount of surface area inside a 20lb propane cylinder is not allowing the propane to boil off fast enough to run your heater properly. That is the easiest explanation there is, this problem gets worse as the cylinder gets lower, happens on 100lbers also but not until they are down below 5-10lbs in them. The new style valves also restrict flow which does not help the problem. If you are running anything over 15-20,000 btu's it is recommended to step up the cylinder size accordingly, anything over 50,000 btu's you should have a 100lber or bigger hooked up.

Someone asked earlier why we don't have problems with our houses and the bigger 500 gallon tanks, it is because they have more surface area for the propane to boil off, but if the tank is low and it is extremely cold out for an extended period there would be problems. That is why they recommend you to keep your tank above 10-15%

That's how I wanted to explain it but could figure out how to word it thanks rat

[MNfan]

Hawgchaser & Canopy Sam couple of things first I am in the ammonia buisness and they do haul both ammonia and propane in the same tankers but always wash out when switching to propane after hauling ammonia because ammonia will eat brass fitting which are used in propane service never in ammonia. Ammonia will not eat your rubber hose as we use them in ammonia service. Canopy do some research on ammonia and propane and their refrigeration properties, is it possible if you are trying to pull to much propane through a too small of regulator causing a restriction the propane is super cooling it self esspecially if product temp is already cold causing freeze up? Just a thought I have!

Andy

[boXCar JiggY]

Hey harvey, what was we were trying to get across in the begging of this thread....oh yeah, proper tank size for the furnace running an proper regulator per tank size... yeah somehting like that id guesse. LOL!

[harvey lee]

Not sure I guess.

I thought I mentioned a larger tank but maybe I do not remember.

[CANOPY SAM]

is it possible if you are trying to pull to much propane through a too small of regulator causing a restriction the propane is super cooling it self especially if product temp is already cold causing freeze up

Alright! Now we're getting somewhere!

Yes, Andy, it's certainly possible. However, again, the regulator and hosing comes as part of the contractors heater. It's a 75,000 - 125,000 btu, brand new unit. It does recommend a 30 lb. cylinder or larger, and I've been using a 20 lb. cylinder. Admittedly, the last time I was using it I was running it full wide open at the cylinder attempting to thaw out some machinery, but I didn't have the settings on high with the heater itself.

None-the-less, what you say makes perfect sense. I was really wondering if this wasn't part of the problem, as it seemed the warmer I tried to get the garage (by turning up the heater a little more) the faster the regulator and tank were frosting up! The tank had been sitting out in the garage the whole time, so I hadn't pre-warmed the cylinder prior to using it. I bet that would make a HUGE difference right there, wouldn't it?

Jiggy, your genius shines thru in your every post. Thanks so much for all the years of trusted friendship and encouragement! You keep telling folks you're not here anymore (or not supposed to be here anyway), but what's the old phrase? Keeps showing up like a bad penny?

Anyway, thanks for all the help guys. Working with propane has always spooked me a little bit. Had a bad experience on a fly-in trip to Canada where one of the kids was trying to light a propane stove and nearly killed everyone in the cabin! I ran him down to the lake and doused him to put out his hair, and save his hide. I've had a very healthy respect for propane ever since. Looks like sales on 30+ lb. propane cylinders will be good this year!

[Dozer]

Jiggy, your genius shines thru in your every post. Thanks so much for all the years of trusted friendship and encouragement! You keep telling folks you're not here anymore (or not supposed to be here anyway), but what's the old phrase? Keeps showing up like a bad penny?

Couldnt have said it better myself!