450 ES starting problem

[oscar]

I have a 2000 450ES Honda that is almost impossible to start when it gets cold out. It starts great and runs fine above 20 deg. When its between 10 and 20deg it will fire and run for about a second, then it kills. It will do that about 4-6 times before it eventually will keep running. When its below 10 deg it will not even fire. I've tryed every different choke and throttle position I could imagine. The air filter is clean and I've replaced the spark plug, but it still will not start cold. The battery cranks it over for a long time before going dead so I don't think its bad. I run premium fuel through it and it has fresh gas. I mainly puchased it for ice fishing but it is getting more than a little frustrating. Its made for some long walks back to the truck. If anyone could help me out with this problem I would greatly appreciate it. Does anyone else have a problem like this with a Honda or is it just me? Open to any suggestions.

[CHOPPERTHEDOG]

When you cleaned your air filter did you re-oil it? If not this will cause a lean condition. I am not positive if this affects you but a few Honda's have carburetor heaters on them.....you turn the key on and don't crank the engine for a minute or so, allowing the carb heater to work, then proceed to start as normal. You could also try running a spark plug that is in a different heat range, I have had the best luck with NGK in my Honda's (the higher the number, the colder the plug with NGK). You may have a dirty pilot jet in your carb that won't allow enough fuel for cold starts. It could be a combination of all of these things. You might want to read he owners manual, it may also give some hints for cold weather operation.

[oscar]

I did re-oil the filter with red K&N air filter oil when I cleaned it, and believe me I've read the owners manual from start to finish. The only thing it says about cold starts is to push the primer 2-3 times before starting, and it doesn't say anything about waiting for a carb heater. I did put in an NGK plug, but I could try the different heat range like you suggested. The spark plug is always wet when I remove it after it fails to start. I was thinking that the starter might be drawing too much because it seems to fire when cold when I use the recoil instead of the starter, however it still doesn't keep running. I'm probably chasing a ghost with that idea. Thanks for the input and I hope more comes in. Again any help is appreciated.

[CHOPPERTHEDOG]

You may also want to try using a lighter weight oil, I'm using Amsoil 0w-40, so it will be less work for the starter to turn the engine over when cold. Another thing is to get rid of the premium gas, your machine has a pretty low compression ratio and doesn't need it. 87octane will work fine for your machine.

[Dave]

Oscar, I have a 2002 Honda Rubicon that starts hard in the cold also. Many times It'll crank and crank and then it fires. The choke has to be fully on for this one to start in the cold, as with most wheelers I've had. Also, some Polaris models I've had did not start even though it cranked what seemed to be fine. When I used the recoil, it fires right up. Maybe the battery is on the weak side on your 2000 Honda. They lose a lot of energy when cold. It wouldn't hurt to have it checked.

[JimJ]

had the same problem last weekend with my foreman. If I primed it it would fire then quit. Turned out the choke cable was stuck at half open from only opening half way all fall I would guess. I worked the choke in and out hard a few times and it then broke loose and went to full choke. Started right up after this. I used it alot last winter with summer oil grade and plug range, still started great. Good luck.

[oscar]

Chopper, I really do not know a whole lot about gas, but do you seriously think it will start better with cheaper gas? Maybe it will I don't know. I am going to try lighter oil and then maybe a new battery. It has Honda GN4 10w-40 oil in it, which is what our local Honda dealership recomended. If all else fails I might have to break down and take it to a dealer, but I would hate to burn up my fishing budget like that. Its already too small the way it is. Thanks alot for all the info.

[Gofishleech]

I have the same problem, but mine is becouse the choke pull is broke. Yours may not be engaging the shoke enough.
What I do is use the primer 3-4 times and when started I keep one hand on the throdle and one on the primer.
I do not use much throtle but when it starts to die I push the primer (once) It may take a prime or two but works for me.

I found the batteries to only last 2 years, you may be due but I would check to see if your choke is operateing properly.

[Fisher Dave]

I would definately recommend lighter oil for the cold months. Your engine will turn over easier, thus drawing less voltage while starting. Your coil could be on the weak side, but its more likely that a good carb cleaning could take care of your problems.

[oscar]

I just don't have enough hands to start this thing. I need one on the starter, one on the choke, one on the throttle, and now one on the primer. Do that math. Its like a wicked game of twister to get this thing going. Is the choke supposed to stay where you set it, because mine is almost like it is spring loaded. If I don't keep holding it, it goes off of choke on its own. It does go to full choke. I used it the last couple days and it worked perfectly, but I'm sure that will change when it cools off. How would I know if it has a weak coil, can it be tested somehow?

[fasteddy52]

Oscar;
I have a 01 Rancher and the choke should be the same setup as your 450, my choke pulls out and stays until I push it back in. Check your choke line to see if there is something wrong. You can get a new choke line for around 15 bucks, not to difficult to put in. I have had problems with it sticking and not going to full choke because the line was sticking inside of the casing. I had a worm blower and put some light oil in it and injected it into the choke line, worked great ever since. Using syn oil would also help with cold starting and less wear and tear on your engine.

[CHOPPERTHEDOG]

Yes the cheaper gas will start easier than premium (noticeable between 87 & 92??, but 92 is a waste of money for your machine). Premium burns colder and slower than regular. I also noticed you said that you used K&N air filter oil, are you using a K&N filter?? If you are it is recomended that you re-jet the machine. If you are not running the K&N I would suggest getting a foam filter oil. If you have any hint of mechanical ability you would be able to completely disassemble the carb and make sure that everything is clean (use compressed air and carb cleaner) and make sure the choke is running its full range of motion. Most important thing is to make sure you use a good quality phillips screw driver as the screws can be a pain when taking the carb apart and are easy to strip.

Also, using the throttle is not a real good idea if you go anything over 1/8-1/4 throttle, all you are doing is letting it suck in air.

If you live in the east metro area and need a hand let me know, maybe I could give you a hand. It is kind of a hobby of mine so I enjoy putzing with it.

[Dave]

Your choke cable doesn't sound like it's working properly, since it returns by itself. In colder weather, it very well could be getting frozen if debris and moisture are in the cable, too. Inspect the cable for kinks, sharp bend, damage and lube it with some cable lube or WD-40 in need be. I would start there.

[Fisher Dave]

The coil can be tested with an ohm meter. You will need a manual, or specifications on your machine. You will need to know what wire leads to it, and how much resistance it supposed to have.

It is more likely that you have a fuel problem, but the coil is a possibility. When your fuel is not breaking down properly, it causes all kinds of problems... its easier to ignite mist(vapors) than it is to ignite a puddle.

Odds are on the coil, if you dug around at a couple ATV forums, someone would give you the info you need, and point you in the right direction for the wire.. It usually takes about 30 seconds to test one, but you need to know what harness to unplug, and which wire to read(machine not running). I dont have the manual for that machine .. so I cant help you out there.

[Ruttin' Buck]

I'm a Polaris guy so maybe I'll be struck dead on this one, but if your chokes are at all like Polaris chokes give this a once over.

Half into this I realized this is tough to explain...bear with me. Where my choke enters there is a round plastic piece that the rod goes through. This looks like a plastic piece that is used to 'dress up' the hole that the choke goes through. Well it's that, plus it functions as a choke hold. If I loosen (CCW) this piece my choke too will go back in after pulling it out. If I give it a turn clockwise, my choke will stay out when pulled on.

Not sure why, I know it's intentional as the sales guy showed me this. I think it's for summer days so you can pull it out and once it starts, let it go and it will pull back in. In the winter, I set mine so that I can idle for a few minutes until the engine warms up.

Good luck.

[RussDaBuss]

I just bought a used 2003 Rubicon recently. My choke is the same. It slowly goes back in, after pulling it all the way out. I too have had a little problem with starting it. I just have to keep an eye on it while warming up. It does want to cut out the colder it is. I have not started it yet when it is below 0.

[This message has been edited by RussDaBuss (edited 12-29-2003).]

[RussDaBuss]

Thanks Buckblaster. I looked at mine last nite and my Honda Rubicon is the same way. I tightened the choke a little and it stays open now. This is good to know. There is a rubber housing around this piece but I could easily turn it clock-wise to tighten. Thanks

[Ruttin' Buck]

Cool. I knew I was going out on a limb as I am not the least bit familiar with Hondas, but it sounded to familiar to me.

[oscar]

Thanks also Buckblaster, now my choke stays exactly where I set it. I want to clarify, the piece that adjusts it is directly below the choke knob and looks like a dust boot. I was looking by the carb at first until I figured it out. Call me slow I don't care. I would take you up on your offer Chopperthedog, but I don't live in your area. Thanks anyway. My honda has all original equipment, I don't have the funds to mess with aftermarket items. I am just plain happy to have an ATV. I am waiting for cold weather next week to test some of the ideas everyone came up with. I can't stress enough how helpful this site and its posters have been for me.

[ChuckN]

Oscar,
I've never heard of this in a Honda. I've seen it in my dad's Bearcat, in the past and we had to get the carb re-worked. You may need carb adjustments is my guess. Also Chopper is right, it is possible K&N air filters can affect performance and re-jetting/adjustments must be done to compensate.

I have a 2000 450S. It should be the same choke as your ES. My lever is a small black thumb knob on the left handlebar. It should be a stiff lever and stay in place when you move the lever to the left (full choke) and gradually move it to the right (for no choke).

I'm running 10W-40 now (haven't given an oil change to 5W-30 yet). Mine starts fine at -15 with that oil. It did in early November while deer hunting, it was -15 below on morning.

From reading all this info, you guys have a primer on your Foremans?? I don't even know if my machine has a primer, never needed it!

What part of the state do you live in Oscar?

[RussDaBuss]

Well, hopefully we all learned somethng now. A guy I work with also has a 2003 Rubicon. His is also slow to start in cold weather. He has just learned his machine and how to work it. He has never had to use the primer either. He never knew about it. I guess we will see what the cold weather will bring in the next week. Good luck to all and THANKS!!!

[Ruttin' Buck]

It's just too bad you had to get a hint from a Polaris guy...sorry I just couldn't keep from rubbing it in a little.

[RussDaBuss]

Polaris is good stuff I will agree!! Honda is equall all the way... I recently seen a new Polaris Sportsman 400 on display while walking thru Crossroads mall in St. Cloud... Wow, does that thing look mean! Tons of clearance....

[sledhead]

For those of you having an issue of the choke cable returing to it original postion, the criper on the head of the cable it loose. right under where to pull the choke up there is a rubber cap, twist it or pull the cap up and twist it. This will crip the plastic sheath more and the choke will not return by itself. As for winter starting, use a lighter weight oil. push the primer 1 or 2 time thats it or you will fowl the plug. Clean you air filter regularly, use FOAM FILTER OIL. DO NOT USE K&N OIL, it is for their cleanable filter only.

Oscar when was the last time you had the valves adjusted. Inproper valve clearance can cas a had start issue in cold weather especally if they are loose. the spec for your valves i .006 thousands cold at top dead center. for both intake and exhaust. And it really don't matter if you run 87 or 92 octane.

For guys with RUBICONS your running alot of oil THEY ARE ALL HARD TO START IN COLD WEATHER. almost 6 quarts. If you got more questions post again I work on hondas, polaris, suzuki, acrtic cat, yamaha and ski-doo traxters for a living.

[oscar]

It looks like the K&N air filter oil is not the stuff to be using. I'm from the St. Cloud area and the Honda House sold me that oil. I just assumed they would know what should be used. I have never checked the valve clearance and I have 700 miles on it. Is it adjustable with wrenches or do you need to buy different thickness shims to adjust, like the old motorcycle engines? If you have the time to describe in detail the adjusting process, I would love to read it. I was not real concerned about valve adjustment because I know someone with a foreman who has over 3000 miles on it, and has never done a thing to it. Maybe he is just plain lucky. I'm sure it would not hurt to check it, piece of mind is always worth something.