Gear Ratios

[mrklean]

Just getting more into muskie fishing and would like to upgrade my reel have a 6600 and its a bear pulling any of the larger baits. What type of gear ratio should i be looking into for working larger baits? What is a decent reel in the $125 range to pull those big baits, i think ill keep the 6600 for topwaters and smaller baits seems to work well.

[dan z]

Can't say enough about my Cardiff 400A its handled everything very well for a few seasons. Its kinda tough to pull double 13 blades but it'll work well for double 10's.

If you can find a older c4 winch on the list or auction site its worth the $$$ the gears are 3.8/1 are there tough I've had mine over 10 years and I have only replaced the worm gear once!

[graf703]

Go up in your budget or find a used saltist. I've got a couple and they pull big blades with ease. Then get a 9' extra extra heavy rod. It makes reeling so much easier because your reeling force is focused on the bait instead of being absorbed in the rod bending.

[Deet]

If you get a winch-type reel (low gear ratio, like the 3.8:1 suggested by dan z), you're going to have to reel extremely fast, but each revolution will take less energy. The thing is, the only way it gets truly easier is to have a more efficient reel, and I don't think reel manufacturers publish their efficiency. You can't cheat principles of mechanics. Even a stiffer rod doesn't actually help transfer more energy to the bait, except for during the initial couple cranks when a flimsy rod would be loading. But once it's loaded [bent], all your energy is translated into movement of the bait.

If a reel has harder metal gears and really good bearings, it will be more efficient and thus take less of your energy to make the bait move. That's where $$$ comes into play.

Most people are buying the Daiwa Saltist (gear ration 6.1:1) or the Abu Garcia Revo Toro HS (6.4:1) for pulling harder-to-pull baits, with probably the Saltist being more popular (?). Remember the gear ratio alone doesn't dictate how far the bait moves per handle rotation, but the spool diameter and amount of line on the spool come into play as well.

I burned up two C4's and one C3 in two seasons, then got a Revo Toro and it's on it's fourth season. And I actually pull the big-bladed bucktails way more now than I used to.

I don't know of any really good reels for under $200. However, if you are diligent in searching, you could find a good sale somewhere.

[Zelmsdawg]

I think I've seen a few used saltists go here and through other sites around 150-200. Once I saw one (right after I got mine) at 125. Think I paid around 200 for a pre-bought but in the box new one. So far its worked great, think I'm on year 4 now. The big difference for me is when I switch from my 9' heavy rod and that reel to a c3 and 7.5' rod combo. Feels like a toothpick

[graf703]

Even a stiffer rod doesn't actually help transfer more energy to the bait, except for during the initial couple cranks when a flimsy rod would be loading. But once it's loaded [bent], all your energy is translated into movement of the bait.

I would disagree with this. The rod has a force to straighten and the angler needs to maintain that force + the force drawing the lure through the water. For a comparison, try doing figure eights with double 13s on a stiff rod and then a flimsy rods. There is way more work involved with a flimsy rod. Just my $.02

[Deet]

I would disagree with this. The rod has a force to straighten and the angler needs to maintain that force + the force drawing the lure through the water. For a comparison, try doing figure eights with double 13s on a stiff rod and then a flimsy rods. There is way more work involved with a flimsy rod. Just my $.02

I kind of understand why you'd think that, but the reality is this: if your rod is not dissipating any energy (which it's not), than it doesn't take any of your energy. EXCEPT, like i said before, to create the initial bend.

I like your comparison idea. If you do that with a strain gauge or spring scale hooked on your hands on one end and the handle of your rod on the other (in some way that would allow you to still control the figure-8), I would bet $1,000 (if I had it) that you'd get the exact same reading with a MH rod as a XXH rod. But again, as you instigate a retrieve and your rod starts to bend, there is some energy going into the deflection of your rod, but that is the only time when your reeling energy is translated to the bait less efficiently. And that only lasts an instant.

Think of this: does it take more force to lift 1000 lb if you're using a rope than if you're using a chain (assuming the chain and rope are of equal weight)? It does not. It doesn't matter that the rope has some stretch. There is a little bit of extra energy expended on stretching the rope UNTIL its deflection (divided by its total length then multiplied by its "spring coefficient") matches the weight of the object. Your rod and bait follow the exact same concept.

A stiffer rod gives a better hookset, more control in the figure-8, and a faster "response" for your bait (i.e. the delay between your rod movement and bait movement is less than that with a flimsy rod), but it does not allow you to move your bait with less force.

But this is off topic.

[PropsterII]

I would not use a Revo 6.4 for pulling high resistance baits such as double tens. You'll be no better off than with your 6600. The Saltist 20 would be a decent choice (tho it doesnt cast as well) but if you look at a Revo you need to look at the winch, which is 4.6:1. Both are a little higher than you're looking to spend, tho you may find a used Saltist close. About the max gear ratio I'd look at is 5.1:1, but the larger diameter the gear the better. Reels like the Cardiff or even Calcutta 400B (may be able to find something used in your range) do not handle hard-pulling baits well except with a power handle they are passable if not trying to burn them. You can try to do this on the cheap and make more work of it but if you become anything more than an occasional musky hunter you will eventually own more or better reels anyway. If you really want to keep the expense down for this purchase I would consider a Bass Pro Maina reel (It's a Pflueger Trion) in 4.2 gear ratio for $100. It comes with a power handle. Or I have one for $45, as well as a 5.2 version. Or both for $80 shipped.

[the man]

It's not necessarily the gear ratio save some money for more musky baits and buy a power handle. I have the same reel and they make a world of difference.

[graf703]

But this is off topic.

But it is fun.

Forcewise (I just drew a diagram): the support arm works against the rod to reel in the lure. If there is more bend in the rod does the support arm experience more force? Is there more friction in the line against the guides collectively going through a steeper turn?

I've got a feeling you're thinking that the resistance of the lure in the water and the cranking to reel it in is the only amount of "work" going on and therefore the only amount of energy involved. However, if you tie a line to the metrodome and lean into the rod with a stiff rod vs a noodle rod of equal lengths, don't you think the stiff rod would convey more force efficiently without accomplishing any work. Maybe there is a length of pull/spring equation going on here too.

To be on topic: My opinion is that I had way more endurance throwing/retrieving/figure 8ing heavy dragging lures with a xxh rod and saltist reel compared to a heavy rod and saltist reel or even a xxh and a low speed small crank Abu Garcia.

I'd actually advise against buying tons of baits. I bet I've caught all my fish on 5-6 baits. Using the most appropriate setup for the types of baits fish bite the most (double blades, big rubber) will be where you see a dividend on your investment.

[Esox_Magnum]

I have 3 reels with the same or real similar gear ratios, Revo Toro HS, Trinidad 14 and a Curado 300 DSV for pulling 10's and up the Trinidad by far is the easiest, for 8's either the Trinidad or HS, Curado will work but wears you out fast. I do have an extended power handle on the HS, power handle on both the Trinidad and Curado all are on the exact same rods....

[Deet]

Is there more friction in the line against the guides collectively going through a steeper turn?

[graf703]

During the retrieve, you are pointing your rod at your bait, so neither rod length nor stiffness matter. Even if your rod is pointed sideways, as discussed later, it isn’t more exhausting to the fisherman to have a lighter, shorter, or whatever, rod. This doesn’t necessarily apply to the figure-8; there are different principles involved.

Great dialogue! I try to not point the rod at the bait hoping to get better rod action for the hit. I do notice when I'm tired at the end of the day or in current I will point it straight towards it.

[Zelmsdawg]

I love this science of fishing I think bill nye and the linders need to get together for a show or two

[73h h4x]

My choice for a low-cost, do-it-all reel would be a Shimano Curado 301E (or a 300 if you use the wrong hand to crank )

I just moved mine from an 8' mojo musky to a 9' Tackle Industries XXH and i'm super impressed. It handles everything! While you cannot burn a cowgirl with it like you could with a Tranx, of course, you can retrieve it at a reasonable speed pretty much all day. It also handled a pounder and a 12" Smuttly Dog jerk bait (that probably weighs about a pound as well) like a boss.

I also have a Calcutta 401 TE, and to be honest, I like fishing with the Curado more, and it's almost half the price.

You can find used ones on Craiger-lister or weeeEbay for under $200.

[Bigguyone]

Deet - I have to say may the best post I have ever read (most intellect) on any forum. :-) Nice job!