Bear Lottery 2013

[protrapper]

Well a few things. One the safety aspect of hiring a guide. Two the hunters success goes way up with a guide. Three is it so wrong with guides making some money? My hunts aren't for the rich. They are reasonable an go for entire bear season.

If your friends with guides, the you know about all the money invested, equipment, trucks, wheelers, bait, advertising, insurance and license fees. I also have to be federally licensed and insure the USDA on top of that. CPR first aid certified, guides clinic etc. which I'm all for. But the DNR cuts tags but makes us go through the ropes on rules an regs. How about tags for sale by guides?

Better yet. How about non- residents who don't hire a guide can't hunt state land for first week of season? Ring a bell?

[Scoot]

Well a few things. One the safety aspect of hiring a guide.

[protrapper]

You kinda put words in my mouth so to speak. It was just some ideas. Maulings? Who brought that up? That's hardly what I was talking about.Yeah, I'd hire a guide between bait, gas. Renting rooms, food or whatever only makes sense to me. I've heard it from many many many hunters.

Its just my opinion with the hoops we as guides had to jump thru starting last year an now they drop the tags as raise the license fee for non residents.

But you missed this totally. I didn't agree with the big jump in fees.

Why shouldn't we get special treatment? I pay more in fees, taxes, etc. than a do it yourself non res guy. I as a guide suffer the most. So yes I think I should benefit somewhat.

Remember this, I have pay for some advertising, webpage, publications, 2 guides license fees state an fed, insurance liability for my business, my equipment, and USDA. This is before I even begin baiting, much less book hunters.Pretty big coin there for couple weeks when it comes down to it. Care to take a shot at what it costs to add the Feds to my ins. Policy for bear season. For argument sake is two weeks.

I think non resident no state land without guide for first week is fair. And that's saying a lot because where I live 90% is federal or close to it. So I'd benefit little from that part.

[Scoot]

You kinda put words in my mouth so to speak. It was just some ideas. Maulings? Who brought that up? That's hardly what I was talking about.

[NoWiser]

I'm a bear guide and I know I'll take some flack for this. I'd like to see all non-residents have to hire a guide. Especially since they dropped the tags so low. My area 31 is down to 550 tags. Pretty hard to bring in new clients much less have my repeats get drawn.

Wow. I apologize for my bluntness, but this is one of the worst ideas that I have ever read on this HSOforum. There is not even one single reason this is a good idea. Laws like the one you are proposing are, in my mind, the biggest threat we have to hunting today. Even more so than animal rights groups like PETA. The high license fees for nonresidents are bad enough, forcing a completely competent hunter to hire a guide is ridiculous. I would quit hunting entirely if I was required to use a guide. Be careful what you wish for, protrapper.

[protrapper]

I did answer your question. I think your anger got in the way.

[lichen fox]

Protrapper, I don't understand what your fee's and expenses have to do with anything...my partner and I spend on average about $600 per year each...($1200 total)...on bait, scouting, fuel and other expenses associated with our bear hunting...All bear hunters and guides have expenses...the only difference is that a guide can deduct 55 cents a mile for every mile driven, scouting, collecting bait and hunting...your license and fees can also be deducted, as can the cost of any bait you buy...if you advertise that's 100% deductable as well...So, in reality, you are just the one that chooses to take a chance on something, hoping you'll make a profit when it's all said and done...you're a business man, providing a service for those who want to or need to hire a guide for whatever reason...but, the government doesn't "owe you" anything because of all the $$ you've invested and all the hoops you've had to jump through! Telling someone that all non-residents must hire a guide, is basicly the same as telling them that while in MN you may only buy goods or services from the people and business on the list that has been provided to you by the MN legislature!

[Scoot]

I did answer your question.

[superbee]

Take it easy on Protrapper. Look at it from his point of view, he has an investment. I am not saying all non residents should have to use a guide/outfitter, but there is nothing wrong with the idea of outfitter/guide sponsored licenses. It would be good to have the same number of NR tags available to those who want to hunt on their own also. The outfitter sponsored tags could even be a higher dollar if those tags were given more preference. The NR tag fee seems pretty reasonable and I presonally don't think any NR should be complaining about them. A few hundred bucks is cheap compared to most states NR fees for big game tags. If the state takes away all NR tags, I would bet there will be an uproar over that and most out of staters would not think that is right either. All in all, it is a bad situation to have to deal with.

[Scoot]

Superbee, Protrapper started this by saying he would take flack for his comments and he's right. I'm not trying to pick on him and I certainly have no beef with him personally. I, however, disagree with his take on this completely. He certainly does have an investment, but I don't see how that makes it ok to mandate the use of a guide for anyone- resident or non-resident alike. Doing so would benefit guides, but hurt hunting and hunters.

I agree with him that it's a mess and a joke what is required to guide. However, how does that justify requiring a guide?

I agree with almost all of what you posted, superbee, but I don't agree with your statement "...there is nothing wrong with the idea of outfitter/guide sponsored licenses." In fact, I completley disagree with this. I don't see anything right about them!

I agree too about the NR tags still being a fairly reasonable price. If they're overpriced, people won't pay the fee. I'd be interested to see the cost of MN bear tag compared to most US states that offer bear hunting. I'm pretty sure you're right that the current cost is in the ballpark.

I'm not trying to bust his chops for no reason here. He started this by saying he'd get a bad time for what he said. I agree- what he posted is self-serving and not at all in the best interests of the future of hunting IMO. Again, I have no beef with guides or guiding. I do, however, have a big problem with laws that require hiring guides and with any organization or entity getting preferential treatment over "regular hunters".

[superbee]

I hunt different areas on both guided and unguided hunts. I understand the idea of the DIY hunts and think that they should be offered where it is feasible with the game populations and situations. Personally, I don't have any problem if NR are not given any tags if the population is low and truly justifies that, that would mean more NR bear hunters in Ontario;)

[lichen fox]

I'm a bear hunter and I know I'll take some flack for this. I'd like to see all non-residents have to wait to be drawn until all residents have been drawn...Especially since they dropped the tags so low. My area 12 is down to 200 tags...I'd also like to see them waive the lottery application and give tags automaticly to all hunters who have hunted bears 25 or more years and harvested at least 20 bears...Pretty hard for us oldtimers to get drawn with the current odds, much less be drawn again before we're too old to carry buckets!

[Scoot]

I'm a bear hunter and I know I'll take some flack for this. I'd like to see all non-residents have to wait to be drawn until all residents have been drawn...Especially since they dropped the tags so low. My area 12 is down to 200 tags...I'd also like to see them waive the lottery application and give tags automaticly to all hunters who have hunted bears 25 or more years and harvested at least 20 bears...Pretty hard for us oldtimers to get drawn with the current odds, much less be drawn again before we're too old to carry buckets!

I'm a mason. I'd like to see all new homes built for people moving into the state be required to have brick on the front of them. This brick work can not be done by the owner or a private individual, it must be done by a member of our masonry union, preferably me. People shouldn't have a choice in the matter, a law should be put in place to assure me business. Afterall, I've invested a lot of time and money into my equipment and I need to recoop some of my costs.

[Scoot]

OK, I'll quit being so angry! LOL

Superbee, I honestly hope you and protrapper have lots of business and make plenty of money doing your guiding work. I have no beef against you guys and I wish you well guiding.

[protrapper]

I'm a mason too, and log in the winter. Everyone should build with brick, block , stone. Oh yeah an buy firewood from me.

[lichen fox]

And Mason's, Loggers and guides should be required to purchase Radio ads from ME!

[Random guy]

Interesting stuff.

[lichen fox]

So, Jonny...are you leaning towards hiring a mason? Hiring someone to put up your wood pile? or Buying Radio ads?

[Random guy]

My basement leaks, the oil furnace repairs haunted me and I would love to advertise; I truly need all of those services. Although two years of the majority of my applying hunters not drawing tags I can't afford any of it.

[protrapper]

I had two groups. One had 2 hunters with 2 points who didn't draw. And 3 with 2 points no draw. Then I had 2 first timers no points draw. It can be weird. Gotta keep at least 60 hunters applying every year. Never advertised till 3 seasons ago. If memory serves correct I believe that's when the tags started to drop. Hard to make a dime much less break even after all said and done

No idea how anyone can sell fully guided hunts under 1,000$ an make money. Let alone provide a good service.

[lichen fox]

Yea, I'm sure it will be different for bear guides throughout the state with the huge drop in tags over the past 3 years or so...It will definitly affect your bottom line if you can't fill your slots with hunters...But I guess that is part of the risk of any business of this nature...One thing I have noticed that has to help you out "some" is there are alot less guides than there were, say 8 years ago...and I would think there would be somewhat less again with the tests, cpr training, etc that outfitters now have to do...If you are lucky enough to live close enough to the no-quota area to set some baits there, you may still do ok...And as for cost...it is what it is...I mentioned earlier the $$ my partner and I spend on bear hunting...When I mentioned the $700 each per year, that was "actual" out of pocket expenses...gas-bait-lisc-etc....On average, in 20+ years of bear hunting, we put on about 2800 miles per year, so if you skip the gas and figure your mileage at 55 cents a mile, add you bait & lisc...it comes to over a $1,000 each per year...So, for us, it isn't a matter of DIY hunts being any cheaper...it's just that we enjoy it...the scouting, the baiting and the hunting...When I can't carry buckets anymore, if I still have the desire to sit on bear bait, then I'll hire a guide...It won't cost me any more or less than doing it myself...I just won't get to spend as many days in the forest as I do now...

[Scoot]

The deadline for bear is next week. When do the results typically become available and how does one check to see if he was drawn?

[lichen fox]

There will be a link on the Dnr HSOforum to check if you were successful...to check, you'll need your ID information as you did when you applied...they will also mail out a card to everyone drawn...they say by such & such a date...but it usually is withing 2 weeks of the application deadline...

[Scoot]

Excellent- thanks lichen!

[Coureur_de_bois]

...So, for us, it isn't a matter of DIY hunts being any cheaper...it's just that we enjoy it...the scouting, the baiting and the hunting...When I can't carry buckets anymore, if I still have the desire to sit on bear bait, then I'll hire a guide...It won't cost me any more or less than doing it myself...I just won't get to spend as many days in the forest as I do now...

Well said lichen fox... I am a bear guide for same reasons your a DIY hunter, the scouting, baiting, the hunt, and days in the woods. Being a bear guide gives me the chance to be out there even on the years I dont get drawn myself. If I cover my expenses great, but I am not relying on the outfitting income to make a living. I understand and respect the frustration of the guides that rely on the income from outfitting. With the reduction in tags its going to make it tough.