Hard Mouthing

[onthefly]

You guys have been a great resource - on my first dog, so need the help!

Again, 14 week old lab. Let him chase a pigeon today. Definitely doesn't lack prey drive. The second time he got it, he chomped down and killed it. Took 2 grown men to pry it from his mouth.

What should I do now (if anything) to soften his mouth a bit?

[MuleShack]

My 2 YO male Short hair had this same problem from puppy on. The good thing was that I didn't have to force fetch him, but the bad thing was that i should have force fetched him.

My 1 year old female short hair was just the opposite, she has a soft mouth and grabbed the dummy or bird and brought it back but dropped it 5' before getting to you.

The female went in for 3 months of training and a professional did the force fetch with her and she was doing it but keep in mind she is a stubborn one. after her training I was busy for a few months and didn't get much time to work with her. When we started to do some training she bucked the retrieve and I didn't know how to correct it properly so she got by with it and got worse.

I finally called the trainer and he spent some time with me and the dog to get her back on track (train the trainer...so to speak) and to show me how its done.

We have had 2 sessions so far and then I go home and work with the dog the rest of the week. She is coming along nicely again now that she knows I wont let her get by with it. This week we started with dead pigeons and it was a lot of correction because she was once again stubborn but being I didn't give in (and had the professional help) she stopped bucking it.

Now back to my male with the hard mouth. Using a dummy he will race to get it, bring it back and come into a perfect heal and wait for me with out any commands. The problem is that he is chomping on it the whole time.

I figured I would try the force fetching thing with him this week. I grabbed his collator and held the dummy out in front of his nose about a foot. I started pinching his ear and said fetch. It took a while but he reached out and grabbed it and then I let off the ear. We went thru this about 5 times and then he didn't need the correction. After he grabs the dummy and you let off the ear, praise him well so he knows he did it right.

From there you can do the HOLD and then the DROP.

When we started to toss the dummy 15-20' he would race out to get it and then bring it directly back to me (with out chomping) and simply drop it in my hand when I say DROP.

He is doing one thing right now, so we can work on the HEEL again.

Not saying I did this correctly and I dont know if it will work for you, but it seemed to cure my dog of the hard mouth. Previously I would just pinch his hear to get him to drop the dummy or bird...but the first year as a 5 month old, I literally had to pry his mouth open when he got his first chuckar.

[onthefly]

Thanks for the reply. At this point, he's showing only some interest in bumpers. He'll do 1-2 retrieves then get distracted. The hard mouth is just with wings and that pigeon. Otherwise it's not an issue...

[Pherris]

I would highly reccomend Tom Dokken's book Retriever Training: The Complete Guide to Developing Your Hunting Dog. Also there are videos of his techniques and demonstrations on youtube. One of the mistakes I made with my lab puppy was playing tug of war. My trainer at dokkens said it is always very obvious when he sees a puppy that has played tug of war and they require the most work to develop a soft mouth. Also I do not play fetch with a ball or stick. After the dog is a couple years old it is fine but the first 24 months of a pups life are when thier most impressionable and fetch is a job not a game. Many people give me funny looks at the lake or dog park when I wont let my dog join in on the "fun". I do work her 3-5 times a week on retrieving excercises so she gets to have pleanty of "Fun".

Good Hunting!!

[gspman]

Trained retrieve, ie. force fetch is your best bet. However he's only 3 months old. Things may change as he gets older and more mature and learns who is in charge etc.

[onthefly]

I have the Dokkens book and it is helpful. Just didn't expect to have to pinch his ear and pry the dead bird out of his mouth! I'll back off live birds for a while and just zip tie wings to bumpers. Or, maybe find some frozen birds.

Also, ditch his soft squeaky toys! Probably not helpful to have the squeak as positive reinforcement to chomping.

If nothing else, sounds like force fetching him when he's old enough may resolve a lot.

[Pherris]

Sounds you are on the right track. As far as training 3 months is a bit young to introduce force fetching. Dokkens won't even do the intro to birds and guns until 5 months. That program covers the first 5 chapter lessons in the book and the training that they did for the force fetching they won't do until 8 months.

Putting the squeaky toys away is also a good idea. My pup had lots of them and while it did prevent unwanted chewing it created a "mouthy" puppy that liked to mouth the birds while she w retrieving them. That was all cleaned up with the force fetching lessons. I used frozen birds to get her "birdy" when she was 3 months until she went to puppy training. I have a decent size back yard and I would drag the frozen bird around the yard on the check cord and the hide it in the bushes. Then I take her outside put the check cord on and let her go nuts. We both enjoyed it a lot.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Training a puppy can be very fun,challenging,frustrating and time consuming but well worth the effort in the end.

Good Hunting!

[GSP4ME]

the above are right. At the age your pup is at i would not worry about it so much one thing you can do is freeze some birds to let him work with. Remember he is a pup and needs this time to develop and gain confidence, IF you crush that now it will never come back. Take the time it takes so it takes less time.

[onthefly]

Well, I zip tied a wing to a bumper. Result was a very enthusiastic puppy who got to the bumper and laid down to chew the wing! When he got it in his mouth a reeled him in with a check cord.

Normal? Or should I back off wings, too?

[MuleShack]

First off, I missed the part that your friend is just a pup yet, so as others said it is too early for the force fetch. I was just explaining how it worked and that it helped with my dogs. I was not trying to tell you to use it on a puppy.

I would say that "wanting to chew" behavior is normal. But if he is going to try to chew it, then just stick with the dummy. IMO you shouldn't need a bird part or scent on a dummy for the dog to want to retrieve it.

Plenty of time for that later in training. The actual force fetch uses plain dummies or some times other utensils of varying weight and balance so the dog retrieves regardless of what it is. Then it gets rolled over to birds and repeats same process.

Just have fun with him now with the dummy and use the check cord to reel him in so he gets in the groove of retrieving.

Keep it short and fun and end on a good note and praise him well when he gets it right. Might as well work the "Here" in while you are doing it.

[gspman]

You may want to avoid adding wings, etc. to the bumpers. If he is crunching them now that may be reinforcing the undesired behavior. Maybe put anything with feathers away for now until he is ready for birds and the trained retrieve regimen.

[duckbuster]

My 2 YO male Short hair had this same problem from puppy on. The good thing was that I didn't have to force fetch him, but the bad thing was that i should have force fetched him.

My 1 year old female short hair was just the opposite, she has a soft mouth and grabbed the dummy or bird and brought it back but dropped it 5' before getting to you.

The female went in for 3 months of training and a professional did the force fetch with her and she was doing it but keep in mind she is a stubborn one. after her training I was busy for a few months and didn't get much time to work with her. When we started to do some training she bucked the retrieve and I didn't know how to correct it properly so she got by with it and got worse.

I finally called the trainer and he spent some time with me and the dog to get her back on track (train the trainer...so to speak) and to show me how its done.

We have had 2 sessions so far and then I go home and work with the dog the rest of the week. She is coming along nicely again now that she knows I wont let her get by with it. This week we started with dead pigeons and it was a lot of correction because she was once again stubborn but being I didn't give in (and had the professional help) she stopped bucking it.

Now back to my male with the hard mouth. Using a dummy he will race to get it, bring it back and come into a perfect heal and wait for me with out any commands. The problem is that he is chomping on it the whole time.

I figured I would try the force fetching thing with him this week. I grabbed his collator and held the dummy out in front of his nose about a foot. I started pinching his ear and said fetch. It took a while but he reached out and grabbed it and then I let off the ear. We went thru this about 5 times and then he didn't need the correction. After he grabs the dummy and you let off the ear, praise him well so he knows he did it right.

From there you can do the HOLD and then the DROP.

When we started to toss the dummy 15-20' he would race out to get it and then bring it directly back to me (with out chomping) and simply drop it in my hand when I say DROP.

He is doing one thing right now, so we can work on the HEEL again.

Not saying I did this correctly and I dont know if it will work for you, but it seemed to cure my dog of the hard mouth. Previously I would just pinch his hear to get him to drop the dummy or bird...but the first year as a 5 month old, I literally had to pry his mouth open when he got his first chuckar.

For future reference, You start with the HOLD then go to the FETCH. The "Drop", "Give", "Release" command comes when doing the HOLD. Force the wooden dowel into his/her mouth then press up on the bottom of the jaw while softly saying "hold".

To the OP, don't worry about your 14 week old chewing up the pigeon and as others have said, don't worry about the force fetch until the puppy teeth are gone.

GOOD LUCK