Open Water Muskies - Info/ideas???

[RuKiddingMe]

I have been hearing/reading a lot lately about Open Water Muskies. I’m talking fishing over 50+ fow with surface baits and shallow running cranks, deep running cranks too. What do you guys look for when seeking these open areas out? I understand that this can be hit or miss and may take a while to develop the skill involved and know what you are looking for. A couple helpful hints to get a fellow Musky fisherman underway would be appreciated.

RU

[RuKiddingMe]

Fish-n-Freak,
When looking for the bait fish pods do you find them in any relation mid lake structure, shorelines relating to deep basins or just floating about anywhere? Also judging from the lures you recommend I'm guessing you are casting for these fish, is it easier to stay with the pod this way? Do you find the predators on the outskirts or right in the mix? Ever pull any pig Walleyes out fishing this way?

Sorry for all the questions, it's just that this has my curiousity peaked, and they say uyour odds at a big one are better in open water situations.

RU

[Fish-n-Freak]

Trolling works too! I just like casting. I have caught them both ways! Sometimes I will troll the open water while looking for the pods, then cast once I'm on the spot, or troll around and through the school a few times.

As far as looking for the pods, they can be anywhere. More of a seasonal thing. ;-) Open water in the summer, points and humps in the fall.

You will catch some of the biggest fish in a system following this pattern. These are fish that have (until recently) been left alone, and are feeding at one big buffet. I have caught Muskie, Pike, Walleye and Smallmouth all out in the open.

The secret to this pattern is finding the bait, and knowing if the school is fishable or not. This will become clearer as you do it, and keep an eye on which schools produce.

Keep in touch over the season -- happy to help fill in the blanks.

Steve ([email protected])

[Guest]

My buddy and I decided to give it a shot this past summer on LOTW.

Were we in for one heck of an eye opener!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't beleive how much time I wasted casting when I could of been trolling.

We targeted deep water schools of bait fish in the pinches of the Narrows and up towards CorkScrew Is.

We pulled cranks that ran from 15 to 20 feet. The water ranged from 30 to 80 feet.

On the average, we pulled up a fish every 15 minutes (clock time) That includes pulling in the fish, taking pictures, releasing, setting back up, HIGH 5's, a beverage and lots of smiles!!!!!!!!

It is slow fishing, alot of work, and takes preparation time to plan your target areas, but our eyes were glued to the graph, as we crossed over pods of baitfish, then quick look back at the rods and see which one would go!!!!!!!!!

Absolute rush that really opened my eyes.

I can't wait this summer to try this on Mille Lacs.

The beauty of it, was ALL fish were big. We caught muskie, pike, and walleye.

There are no small fish working those big pods of baitfish.

The only draw back, was there were only 2 of us in the boat. I wish we would of had 4, so we could of tried different lures at different depths to try and sort through the fish only to target the muskies. The reason I say this, is because we caught alot of walleye and mostly big pike (10 to 15 lb range).

It takes some confidence, and to troll the wide open clear water is tough to do, but it will pay off.

We didn't get our first fish until 30 minutes. By this time, I was sawing logs on the back deck, while my buddy drove the boat. When that first fish hit (15lb pike), we both leaped for the rod, it was such a rush and surprise.

Be flexible with your lure choices and keep plowing through those baitfish. The big boys are there!!!!!!!

Good luck!!!

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Let 'em go so they can grow!!!

[Esoxmn]

Another thing to watch for is ciscoes surfaceing in open water. If you see this stop and start working the pod of fish like is is stucture.

[This message has been edited by esoxmn (edited 03-23-2004).]

[Fish-n-Freak]

Are you kidding me? Muskies in open water -- don't waist your time. ;-)

Actually on certain lakes, and at the right time, it is deadly! If you are fishing a lake with a high population of shad or ciscoe out in the main basin, this is a pattern you should be working on.

Jackpots, TallyWackers, Suicks and Sledges are my favorite. Sometimes you are better off with a Slammer twitch lure. The Muskies are never far from the food -- find a school of bait in open water, and even if you don't mark anything big big the school, start casting.

Minnetonka, Sugar and White Bear are good local waters for this pattern. Mille Lacs and Leech ROCK!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck!
Steve

[RK]

Hiya,
Boy, you could write a book on this subject... such a variety of situations to cover depending on the lake type, time of year, etc.

Couple general thoughts though. One is obviously to look for areas where baitfish are consistently found. That's not the same thing as just looking for baitfish though. Over time on a body of water you'll start to recognize areas where baitfish are often found, vs. the random roving schools that are just bopping around the lake basin. Sometimes there are obvious reasons why the baitfish consistently show up there - deep saddle areas between other structures, for example, or a soft bottomed secondary basin area away from the larger main lake basin. Other times, they're just out in the same area in the middle of nowhere. In cases like this I suspect current has something to do with it but lord knows... Areas like this are places to fish even if there aren't bait present at the moment. Fish sort of hang around the area, and are sometimes actually easier to catch when there ISN'T a lot of bait around.

When I do find schools of bait out to sea, I fish them pretty much like any other structure. Around the edges, over the top, etc. Also, take a trick from Canadia trout water muskie guys. Get a cast length from the school, turn your back to it, and cast AWAY from the bait. If you're trolling, cover the areas away from the bait pod too.

Using electronics is obviously important, but using the eyes in your head can be too. Watch the birdies - if you see Larry the Loon (by the way, all loons are named Larry) out over 25 feet of water, see what he's up to. If he's just sitting out there doing whatever it is loons do when they aren't eating, no big deal, but if he's diving, he's not just doing it for the exercise - there's food out there. Think he's the only one that knows that? First muskie of the year opening day last year got caught because I saw Larry dive out over the basin while I was moving from spot to spot. Stopped, started casting, and got numero uno for '03 about 2 minutes later... Caught a lot of open water fish that way over the years. Lot of big walleyes by accident too...

As far as presentation, my gut feeling, but I think most guys that fish open water tend to fish too deep. You're much more likely to fish too far under fish that too far over them. Most of my open water fish come on baits that run between 3 and 10 or 12 feet down, even when fishing around bait that's down 15 to 20 feet. IMHO, the higher a muskie is in the water column, the more likely it is to hit. I also pay attention to how high bait is in the water column. If the bait's down 30 feet at the top of the thermocline, I usually don't bother. If it's 15 feet down, I'm excited. aside from finding more hitters up high, bringing muskies up from deep water is tough on them - they can't release air from their swim bladders very well, and the rapid depth change really stresses them, and can hurt the survival rate. (for more on this, check out the Release column in the summer issue of Esox Angler - it's about this subject, with a biologist from the MN DNR.)

Cast or troll? Hard to say. For areas of what Doug Stange calls 'confined open water' and small areas that have a track record of bait concentrations I like to cast. Paul Klein, who's an open water specialist over in Wisconsin, always casts, and he works the bejeebers out of his baits. His theory is you really need to trigger open water fish, as well as attract them from a distance. When I cast, I'm usually using a crankbait of some kind. I don't twitch them as hard as Paul does (he's a maniac, and he has Popeye forearms for a reason), but I do hammer them pretty good for all that. Hard to beat a 10" Jake. Color can make a big difference it seems (much as it pains me to say that) to the point where I only use 2 colors casting open water. You'll have to figure out which ones on your own though - can't give away the whole farm Besides the Jakes - Shallow Invaders are good, Triple-Ds can be super, big Ernies if you want to get deeper, and believe it or not, a Bomber Long-A twitched can be great.

I troll when I want to cover big areas. Usually with planar boards and shallow to mid-depth baits. I think the reason a lot of guys use deep divers is they odn't see hooks up high, but you won't usually. Cone angle's too narrow, and I think the fish spook off to the sides. Thus the boards. Plus it's cool as hell seeing a board bury when a fish hits... For boards, I always use mono rather than a superline. Holds in the board clips better, hokos better I think, and the stretch is really an advantage when you have a board out there flopping around with a hooked fish.

If I've got 3 in the boat, I do run a shortline off the back on a down rod, usually with an Ernie or Triple-D running maybe 30 feet back. That gets you down 10 feet or so. Sometimes get fish crashing the transom, and if that starts kicking fish, I'll bring a board in and run 2 down rods. Neat as hell seeing a fish come roaring out of the prop wash right behind the boat too.

whew - looks like I got a start on that book... . Just some random thoughs on the subject though, and there's a lot more you could talk about... But this should get the wheels turning anyhow.

Cheers,
RK

[RuKiddingMe]

WOW, Great info, I'm drooling right now thinking about the open water... Who wants to go to Iowa or Shelbyville??? haha

RK and Freak I was really hoping you would both chime in on this, RK I have read some of your articles and they6 are great and Freak you just plain know what you're talkng about. Thanks also to Big G- and esoxmn.

Come on June...

RU

[Fish-n-Freak]

Thanks!
I am going to Shelbyville in 3 weeks! Can't wait.

[LocalGuide]

Wow there is some awesome info in this post!
Thanks RK for the book and others for the great tips.
I am also looking at trying to open water fish this year. I will mainly do it for big walleyes, but I will be just as happy to hook a monster pike or muskie.

I also need one of those planer boards. What are your guys favorite planer board to use?

Again this is some great info! I'm excited now boys!

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And keep those hooks sharp!

[RuKiddingMe]

Fish-n-Freak, I'm jealous... Good Luck, I look forward to your report...

RU

[TomWehler]

Talking about this stuff is so EASY.
Doing the do, and getting them to CHEW, day in day out can wear on ya, gray up your hair and beard and leave ya with a nasty twitch?
RK always has writen well, his best has yet to hit paper.
Freak Can do the do, but is still a young pup and his Largest to date is truly BIG!!

Fun and it's always a treat to talk about something other than which color lure works best when and why?

Keep on Rock'en!

T.

[Fish-n-Freak]

RK,
Great Post! He really covered some good points.
Don't fish too deep
Don't worry about seeing the big marks, just find the food.
I agree with the idea of making them hit a crazy lure. You want your lure to stand out from the 1,000 or so other fish in the school.
One other item, if you are marking a school in 60 feet of water, and they are down 12 feet -- look for a piece of structure close by with a good point or shelf at the 12 foot mark. I have found some great fishing on these spots. It seems that the fish will hold on these spots waiting for the school to come by. If your lure happens to be the first "stray" from the school -- it's dead!

Open water is on the way, and the season is only 76 (?) days away. We should have this idea fine tuned by then.

Steve

[Scoot]

RK and others- here's how I imagine this to go a good percentage of the time. I'm cruising down a piece of structure and see old Larry (RK's loon buddy) on the deep side of the structure, out in 25 or more feet off of the main drop off. Larry's not just sitting there watching me work my bait like a wizard (ha ha), he's diving and chasing baitfish. So, I turn and fan cast all over the area outside of the deep structure. Is that how it typically happens? Or, is it more often the case where there is 100 yards from hump A to hump B and you hit the open water inbetween them, knowing it's a decent area for baitfish. Sounds like both are decent choices, but typically it sounds like RK is doing the first option.
A similar deal that I've seen is that you can sometimes see ciscoes break the surface outside of a piece of structure in deep water. I like to cast to these spots. I have yet to catch one, but I've had several follows from doing this. I even saw a sklunge out chasing bait doing this one time and got him to follow, but not hit my lure (guess I didn't have one of RK's double top secret colors on).
The flipside to this is this question- I can't really go chasing every Larry around the lake looking for muskies, can I? People already call me crazy!

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Scoot

So I got dat goin’ for me… which is nice.

[RK]

Hiya Scoot -
Tom's got it right (pretty smart cookie that MuskieTom ) - easier to talk about than it is to do - especially with open water fish. Frankly it's one of those deals where you feel like an one-who-thinks-I-am-silly till it works. When I first started messing with trying to catch open water fish it was mostly from either seeing bait popping on the surface, seeing birds working bait, or spotting pods of bait over open water then fishing them whenever I stumbled across them. It was a pretty haphazard deal and one of the things I tried when nothing else was working, which isn't exactly a great way to do things. Finally forced myself to spend some time on it when fishing was good other places (good conditions, weather, etc.) and got some confidence. Also started to notice the areas where bait consistently showed up, and that was a big step in building some confidence in fishing those areas even if I didn't see bait at the moment.

Now, on some lakes for sure, checking out the open water scene is part of the milk run along with the usual points, weedbeds and rock bars. This is especially true of places where I either see bait a lot, like I described above, or where I've had success before in the past. There are a few areas on some of the lakes up your way I seldom drive by without fishing. Ahh - I guess if certan boats are around I drive by them now that I think about it a little ...

Point is the diving fish, bait popping on the surface, etc., are targets of opportunity so to speak. The predictable open water spots are part of the usual milk run of figuring out what's happening that day. For me it's a real head game since for a lot of the season I'm used to casting at rocks and weeds I can see (like on LoTWs), so going from that to casting to nothing over 35' or more of water 3 days later messes with your head.

As far as casting to bait popping the surface, that's a wierd deal. Have seen multiple muskies working a bait school on Leech a couple times. Actually can be tough to get them to bite. Usually have to use something real erratic and flashy or very fast. Walk the dog topwater's good too. Still sort of a tough deal though.

Cheers,
RK

[mavmskyb8]

Alot of great info here. Hey Tom- would you please provide me with seasonal movements of the bait fish along w/ the GPS coordinates and stucture? Along with lure type,presentaion, water temp,color of lure to use, best prime rib, cold beer and cute girls????

[guideman]

Oh yea,
Me and the Freak will be on Shelbyville 3 weeks from today!!!! Wish you could all come along but hey, Steve's driving
and He won't let me invite anyone!

Open water and muskies, in 3 weeks!!!

------------------

Terry "Ace" Sjoberg
aceguideservice.com
Lake Vermilion
Muskies and More.

Pro Staff Member.
Catch-n Tackle.
CKat Custom Muskie rods.
Bearpaws Handpoured Baits
Ohio Pro Lure.
Muskie Nut Tackle.
Big Chimney Muskie Baits.
Marcum.

[TomWehler]

RK digs even deeper into this open water Muskie Bullseye. Good stuff RK.
Hit & Miss techniques are great learning tools as it were.
Matter of fact the Run & Gun, Turn & Fire, Sneak & Peek on something you graphed is all good.
Time seeing these many things mentioned develop on one or two bodies of water can really help you, but for sure won't or can't guarantee a follow or fish. Up ones odds?Sure, but it is hard work, fun work at that, but a hard to figure head game and the fish have the upper hand no doubt.
Learning what to do, when to do it and where is a big key as RK has laid out.
Time can bring this to those that see, read and listen while on the water.
Some Musky people just get a wierd feeling, a taste or yes I have heard of even "That Smell" as to what the fish, lake, edge or structure, wind, temps, moon, bait, Larry's are doing.
Reading what Mother Nature throws into the mix to confuse us each day and then jumping on it to SCORE!
But not always, as sometimes your sore, tired, confused and wonder why you even bother?
Then eat some Footloops and move on and work even harder on the next area.
Not giving in and learning all the time.
In my opinion it can absolutely be one of the hardest ways to fish, but can reap great rewards if and when you put it all together.
Doing it time and again simply ROCKS!

The smile you have will no doubt be seen for miles, even I might add, if your out only with your hounds, a pop and a sandwich.
Dose ones heart and mind good to know your not wasting your time with this kind of Musky Hunting and in fact are learning NEW things all the time, like you set out to do a LONG time ago.
Learning everything around the area you most want to do this kind of fishing on can or will really help you.
Still these fish control the day as they can simply be gone in seconds.
Never a bad thing getting a lure stuck be it mine or a clients.
We go up and see what snatched it and learn.
Yes, this happens a lot when fishing things you can not see.
LOL
Really love the challange and it makes me better in all ways I fish.

If I don't know the spot or NEW area I find, and we DO still find them, we work it, work it again, maybe hit it on the way home and try to find the honey spot and a few of the nesting areas also.
Then log it in me little old brain so we can come back when Mother Nature Deems it so and everything can and sometimes will fall right into place.
Hard work, and a huge head game it right on the money.
This kind of fish'en is what I hear Killed Curley!

Keep on Rock'en!

T.

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